How I’m Dealing With Grief 20 Years After My Father Died | Dead Dads Podcast | Grief Support for Men

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Chapter 1: Introduction: Who Is Mike Wasko?

0:00 Mike: I always say, like with my old man, it's like I've never been more intimidated by anyone than my father.

0:08 Scott: We have another great episode of Dead Dads for You.

0:11 Scott: Today we're talking to Mike Wasco.

0:11 Roger: I think Mike's really unique because his dad died over 20 years ago, and as as somebody whose dad.

0:16 Roger: Only died, you know, just less than two years ago.

0:19 Roger: Um, he really taught me a lot about how his grief has evolved over the course of, of 20 years.

0:24 Roger: And if you're a guy out there whose dad recently passed away, I think this is gonna be a, an important episode for you to watch because you might be angry and you might be a bit confused, and you might be trying to ask yourself,

0:37 Roger: how do I get through all this?

0:38 Roger: Um, Mike really, um, breaks it down for you and shares his experience in a way that.

0:43 Roger: I think you can learn a lot from.

0:45 Scott: Well, I know he is keen to mention in the episode that he's not a guru.

0:48 Scott: He does have a lot of experience, and that his friends have been coming to him for almost 20 years to figure out how it is when their dads die.

0:54 Scott: He talks a lot about what it's like to have a dad who does seem a bit intimidating and angry and how that's shaped him and how he's grown up without a dad, but now he is a dad also.

1:03 Scott: He makes a really interesting analogy towards the end about what grief is, what I think.

1:07 Scott: Really hit me right in the feels, really made it relevant for me.

1:11 Roger: It's weird that your feels are right here.

1:13 Roger: My feels are right here.

1:14 Scott: But together we make a a hole.

1:16 Roger: It's true.

1:17 Roger: Let's bring on Mike Wasco.

1:19 Music: but we're here to help you laugh. It's.

Chapter 2: Mike Joins the Pod: 20 Years of Grief

1:28 Roger: Losing your dad sucks.

1:30 Roger: But talking about it doesn't have to.

1:32 Scott: We are not therapists professionally.

1:34 Scott: We may like to think we are, but we are not.

1:35 Roger: We give really good advice though.

1:37 Scott: Mm-hmm.

1:38 Roger: Just not medically or therapeutically.

1:40 Roger: Although if you do feel better after it, that's okay.

1:43 Roger: You can still, you can still listen to us.

1:45 Scott: But we will bill you for that.

1:47 Scott: We're also not doctors.

1:48 Roger: That's true.

1:49 Roger: We're definitely not doctors.

1:50 Roger: I once was a doctor, but then was.

1:51 Roger: Immediately removed from doctor status.

1:54 Scott: You just had a lab coat on, like, that's not a doctor.

1:57 Roger: That was the problem.

1:59 Roger: Enjoy the next episode of Dead Dads.

2:04 Roger: Alright, so welcome to Dead Dads.

2:06 Roger: We have another guest today.

2:08 Roger: Scott, do you wanna introduce him?

2:08 Scott: Ladies and gentlemen, I would like to introduce you to Mike Wasco.

2:11 Mike: Hello, Mike.

2:12 Scott: Happy.

2:13 Scott: Yeah.

2:14 Scott: Immediately went to Mike.

2:15 Scott: There's no Michael Ines is there?

2:17 Scott: There's Michael.

2:18 Mike: Uh, no.

2:19 Mike: Just people who want to put me in my place.

2:20 Mike: Call me.

2:20 Scott: Right.

2:21 Scott: Michael?

2:21 Scott: Michael.

2:21 Scott: Michael, yes.

2:21 Scott: But Mike Wasco of all of the guests we've had so far.

2:24 Scott: I know your dad passed away quite a long time ago.

2:27 Mike: Long time ago.

2:28 Mike: Over 20 years ago.

2:29 Scott: Yeah.

2:29 Mike: Yeah.

2:29 Scott: But before we get into that, I wanna learn a little bit about you.

2:32 Scott: Can you tell me a little bit about why.

2:34 Scott: You decided to do the podcast?

Chapter 3: Why He's Talking About It Now

2:35 Mike: I was saying, we were just saying earlier on that, I mean, my dad was quite young when he passed away, and I was young, uh, younger obviously.

2:41 Mike: But, uh, I find that a lot of my friends who are my age, I mean their, their parents are now, it's just becoming more common.

2:47 Mike: It's endemic now.

2:49 Mike: Like our, our parents are at the generation now where, whoa, it's happening.

2:54 Mike: You know, quite frequently and statistically, it's usually the dad's first.

2:58 Mike: And, and, uh, you know, I'm lucky enough to have a lot of really good buddies, good guy friends and stuff.

3:03 Mike: And like, it's, it's a bit nuts how many of them are, are starting to lose their, their fathers now.

3:08 Mike: And, and I actually get that a lot.

3:09 Mike: I'm like, well, you've been through it, you know?

3:11 Mike: And I'm like, yeah, yeah.

3:12 Mike: A while ago for me.

3:13 Scott: But, so people are coming to you

3:15 Mike: and saying, oh yeah, I got somebody's my best.

3:16 Mike: Friend.

3:16 Mike: His dad died two years ago, and it's, uh, I feel like I've been, I've watched this story unfold quite a few times over the last few years and, and uh, it's never fun for anyone.

3:25 Mike: You know, your parents get older and they need help and, and, uh,

3:28 Mike: you know, I hope that, I mean, I'm really fascinated to, to listen to your other episodes of this podcast.

3:32 Scott: Mm-hmm.

3:32 Mike: Because, and I think it'll be really useful for people who are, who are going through it because, uh,

3:36 Roger: hopefully

3:37 Mike: yeah, it's, uh, we all get our turn.

3:39 Roger: It's funny.

3:40 Roger: Funny, not funny that everybody dies, but also it feels like as, yeah, as you get older, you become more, I don't know, you, it just, it's, it's among you more whether it's like I'm, I started noticing my parents' friends dying first, you know?

3:54 Roger: Obviously they're getting older.

3:56 Roger: Yeah.

3:56 Roger: And then when my dad died, it's almost like when you're.

3:59 Roger: Like, try to buy a new car and you, you all of a sudden see that car on the street more, it's just parked everywhere, driving past you.

4:06 Roger: I find now that I'm like attuned to all my friends' parents passing away as as well.

4:10 Roger: It's, yeah.

4:10 Roger: Yeah.

4:11 Mike: It's, it's, it's interesting and you sort of, you know, like, you know, you can't help but feel a little shard of your own loss when you, you know, when.

4:17 Mike: Hearing it from somebody that's that, uh, you know, it's like,

4:20 Mike: yeah, I intrinsically know what you're, what you're dealing with.

4:22 Roger: Well, let's, uh, let's dig into that a little bit more.

2:24 Roger: I would love, could you share more about your dad?

Chapter 4: Meet Bob Wasko: "Larger Than Life"

4:27 Mike: His name was Bob Wasco.

4:29 Mike: He was a larger than life, uh, figure.

4:31 Mike: My brother and I.

4:33 Mike: Worshiped him.

4:33 Mike: I mean, he was really fun.

4:36 Mike: Way funner than I am as a dad, to be honest.

4:39 Mike: He was an electrician for BC till when it was BC till before it was, uh,

4:42 Scott: right.

4:43 Mike: Bought out by Teis.

4:43 Mike: He was one of the last line.

4:44 Mike: He was a lineman.

4:45 Mike: He was the, the foreman of his crew of guys, and they were all really tight.

4:50 Scott: Was he born here?

4:51 Mike: He was born in Winnipeg.

4:52 Mike: His folks moved to Vancouver when he was about two.

4:54 Mike: So he grew up in the west end of Vancouver and, and, uh, in downtown and first in Chinatown.

4:59 Mike: Actually they lived in Chinatown here.

5:02 Mike: My grandparents had a, a rooming house that they ran here in Chinatown and then they eventually saved up some money and then they bought a hotel that was on Nelson Street called the Langham.

5:10 Mike: And uh, so my dad and his two brothers kind of grew up there working in the hotel and then the city exp appropriated it in the.

5:16 Mike: Mid sixties to build the extension for the extended care unit for St. Paul's.

5:22 Scott: He grows up here basically.

5:23 Scott: He's basically bc, right?

5:24 Mike: Yeah.

2:25 Mike: From two years old, arguably, yeah.

5:27 Mike: Yeah.

5:28 Mike: Right in downtown and becomes over the course of time becomes alignment.

5:31 Mike: That was his sort of chosen career, if you

5:33 Mike: like.

5:33 Mike: I mean, think he was just a bit of an orangutan when he rolled outta high school and, and.

5:37 Mike: It was a much different world then.

5:39 Mike: And, uh, you know, I think he had, him and his buddies had the idea that they were kind of building the province.

5:44 Mike: They were, you know, they were, they were extending all that telecommunications infrastructure.

5:49 Mike: I'll never forget when I was a kid, he came home with his first bit of fiber optic cable and was like, look at this.

5:54 Mike: And he was like, yeah.

5:56 Mike: He was like this, this is going to change the world.

5:58 Mike: And he was like, and, and he said, some young dumb punk is gonna have to go up north and redo everything that I did up there.

6:06 Mike: And he said, but instead of a spool that fits on the back of a huge truck, it'll be a spool that.

6:11 Mike: Hangs off his belt, you know, like, and, and uh, he's like, this is crazy.

6:14 Mike: You know, like, and I don't know.

6:15 Mike: I was like, oh, okay,

6:16 Scott: okay.

6:17 Mike: But, uh, he was trying to

6:18 Scott: eat here, dad.

6:19 Scott: Yeah.

6:19 Mike: You know, but for him it was like, oh, whole new, whole new deal.

Chapter 5: His Dad's Parenting Style: Tough Love & Unconventional Fun

6:23 Scott: And so what was he like as a dad as you were growing up?

2:26 Scott: Was he like the participatory dad?

6:28 Scott: Did guys do

6:29 Mike: sports and stuff, or?

6:29 Mike: I don't think he was participatory in the way that my mom would've liked.

6:33 Mike: He was a lot of fun in some unconventional ways.

6:36 Mike: He could also be a bit.

6:37 Mike: Brutal.

6:38 Mike: My dad was the king of letting us.

6:40 Mike: Fail.

6:43 Mike: And he, he was just like, 'cause he was like, oh, he's like, I, you're gonna fuck that up if you do it like that.

6:48 Mike: Yeah.

6:49 Mike: Fuck, whatever.

6:49 Mike: And they're like, oh no, it all fell apart.

6:51 Mike: And he was like, oh, you're not gonna do it like that again.

6:53 Mike: Or you, you know, just sort of like, he just over and over and over.

6:55 Scott: And do you find yourself balancing out that feedback now where you remember that's how he taught you and that gave you the genesis?

7:00 Scott: Yeah.

7:01 Scott: I, who you are, but now you're.

7:03 Scott: Unless, do I do that or do I let that happen?

7:06 Mike: It's a balance, right?

7:07 Mike: Like if I see them gonna, that they're gonna hurt themselves, you know, like, you know, or you know, or injure themselves.

7:12 Mike: I'm like, ah, ah, ah, lemme sort of get in there and sorry, you know, we're not doing that.

7:15 Scott: So he's, he's tough love.

7:17 Scott: He's, he's willing to let you make mistakes, and also he's willing to let those mistakes be relatively severe if they need to be.

Chapter 6: The Diagnosis: Six Months, and a Secret to Keep

7:25 Roger: How, how long ago did he pass?

7:27 Mike: 2003.

7:28 Mike: So a long time.

7:29 Roger: Yeah.

7:29 Roger: And how old were you when that happened?

7:31 Mike: 29.

7:31 Roger: Wow.

7:32 Roger: And can I ask how he passed?

7:34 Roger: cancer?

7:34 Roger: Cancer?

7:35 Mike: Yeah.

7:35 Roger: So when was he diagnosed and when did he ultimately, uh,

7:38 Mike: fall of 2002, he, I was working at a, a theater festival, the Shaw Festival out in, uh, Ontario, having a great time out there.

7:47 Mike: And, uh, I was, you know, coming to the end of the season, I was gonna go to Europe and have some fun and do all sorts of stuff and, and then my.

7:54 Mike: Girlfriend at the time, my wife now, she was in a show at Canadian Stage in Toronto and I was on my day off, went in to see her show and we're

8:00 Mike: hanging out and my phone started ringing and I saw it was my brother in Vancouver, like, oh, this is weird.

8:07 Mike: And it's, you know, like 11 o'clock in Toronto.

8:09 Mike: And I was like.

8:10 Mike: And, uh, it was my brother and he said, yeah, oh my God, I'm in the hospital with dad.

8:14 Mike: We went out for lunch and he passed out in the parking lot and we called 9 1 1 and we're here.

8:19 Mike: We don't know what's going on.

8:20 Mike: And side note, my parents had been, uh, split up for quite a while.

8:23 Mike: They split up when I was about 13.

8:25 Mike: So like, you know, that was sort of independent of my, my mom.

8:28 Mike: But, uh, anyway, so I was like, okay, okay, okay.

8:31 Mike: Some kind of emergency happening here.

8:33 Mike: Um, I went to the, my bosses at the Shaw Festival and said, I'm having a family emergency.

8:38 Mike: They were great.

8:39 Mike: They gave me a plane ticket.

8:39 Mike: I packed up overnight and flew back to, to Vancouver.

8:43 Mike: Dad was in the hospital for about a week while they did like this battery of tests and stuff on 'em.

8:48 Mike: And then, uh, sent home and then I kind of moved in with him and he seemed okay.

8:51 Mike: You know, once he sort.

8:53 Mike: Made his initial recovery.

8:54 Mike: And then our family doctor, who was his doctor, called me and asked me to come in.

8:56 Mike: And he wasn't the greatest doctor ever, but he, uh, we'd had a lot of sort of ups and downs with him over the years, but he was like our family doctor.

9:02 Mike: And then he sort of said, uh, yes, no, your dad has, uh, um, a large.

9:08 Mike: Tumor in his esophagus.

9:09 Mike: There's, there's not much we can do about it.

9:11 Mike: He says, you know, we can reduce it with radiation to make him more comfortable.

9:15 Mike: This type of tumor, there's not much we can do about it.

9:18 Mike: And eventually it's gonna metastasize to other things.

9:20 Mike: And like, and I was like, oh,

9:22 Scott: uh, so,

9:22 Mike: oh, I was like, essentially

9:24 Scott: he delivered the news

9:25 Mike: to you?

9:26 Mike: And he's like, yeah, so best of luck.

9:26 Mike: And he and I, and I was like, you know, I walked out of the, and he and I asked him, well, how long does he have?

9:32 Mike: And he's like, six months tops.

9:34 Mike: And I was like, okay.

9:35 Mike: And I walked outta there going.

9:35 Mike: Sorry, am I supposed to deliver this news?

9:37 Roger: Oh, he didn't tell your dad?

9:38 Mike: No.

2:27 Mike: He told me.

9:39 Roger: Oh God.

9:40 Mike: And I was like.

9:41 Mike: You know, when my dad was also the kind of guy that, like, he rarely took information firsthand.

9:46 Mike: He verified things, you know, and, and if I, and there was, you know, a lot Ofop opinion.

9:49 Mike: We, we had a lot of differing opinions on, on stuff.

9:52 Mike: So sometimes if I said something that he didn't agree with, it was like, oh, I'm gonna look into that.

9:57 Mike: So if I just rolled in and said, actually, dad, you got six months to live.

9:59 Mike: Sorry, says who you know, like, you know, and where'd you get

10:02 Roger: your medical?

10:04 Mike: Where'd you get, where'd you get your information from?

10:06 Mike: So I talked to a couple of friends, I said, do you think that's weird?

10:07 Mike: And they're like, that's fucked, man.

10:09 Mike: No, your doctor, your dad's doctor should be delivering that news to him.

10:12 Mike: Yeah.

10:12 Scott: Your dad's an adult.

10:13 Scott: He's still within.

10:13 Mike: Yeah.

10:14 Scott: Like he's not out of his,

10:15 Roger: I don't even know if that's like legal.

10:16 Mike: No.

10:16 Mike: And so anyway, so I called him and said like, ah, I don't really feel comfortable delivering this information.

10:21 Mike: Like I feel like you should be doing.

10:22 Mike: It was like, okay.

10:22 Mike: And the, and the first time I guess in our lives, he made a house call and he came down and said, yeah, so sorry Bob, this is A, B and C.

10:28 Mike: And then my dad was very much like.

10:30 Mike: Oh, mother Nature's gonna have her way no matter what.

10:33 Mike: So do you really think he's dealing with it?

10:34 Mike: Or, there was one point that, you know, he, he was saying to my brother and I, he's like, oh, it'd be good if talk, gimme something.

10:40 Mike: I don't feel so shitty.

10:41 Mike: You know?

10:42 Mike: You know, he, I don't feel so shitty all the time.

10:44 Mike: Yeah.

10:44 Mike: And I was like, well, what do you mean?

10:46 Mike: Like, I.

10:46 Mike: What do you mean shitty?

10:46 Mike: I said like, do you feel like physically shitty or like emotionally shitty or like that you're literally covered in shit?

10:52 Mike: Like what are you talking about?

10:53 Scott: What do you think he was asking?

10:55 Mike: I think he was asking for antidepressants.

10:57 Mike: Yeah.

10:57 Scott: He just felt sad.

10:58 Mike: He just felt, I think he felt a little bit sad,

11:00 Roger: sad, scared, anxious.

11:01 Mike: Yeah.

11:02 Mike: You know, and my dad also, he'd had a bunch of other health problems earlier on in his life.

11:06 Mike: Um, and, but he never let him let it.

11:08 Mike: Slow him down.

11:09 Mike: Like he would, he would talk to anybody who would listen about his, you know, health problems and stuff.

11:14 Mike: But he was always like, oh, still taking trips and going places and blah, da da.

11:16 Mike: Yeah.

11:16 Roger: Yeah.

11:17 Mike: And so this was just kind of an extension of that.

11:20 Mike: He was like, oh yeah, so I got cancer and blah, blah, you know, and it, I don't know.

11:24 Mike: He was like more than willing to talk to people about it.

11:26 Mike: And I think my dad was just like, no, I'm gonna keep it in third, like as long as I can,

11:31 Scott: I still can't believe this.

11:32 Scott: So you were given both the.

11:33 Scott: Challenge to deliver the news, which is,

11:35 Mike: which I didn't end up doing.

11:36 Scott: Which you didn't end up doing.

11:37 Scott: Yeah.

11:38 Scott: But then you had to, you still had to

11:39 Roger: deal with it.

11:39 Scott: You still to deal, you had to get doc, you had to get the doctor's

11:42 Roger: attention.

11:43 Scott: Yeah.

11:44 Scott: So you begin the challenge to have to make the decision to not.

11:46 Scott: Again, address it.

11:47 Scott: But then in between the period where, so he's, he's received the information, and this is, I guess over the course of months, right?

11:54 Scott: Mm-hmm.

11:55 Scott: He's just sort of sitting there.

11:56 Mike: That was about a couple of weeks after I got back where we got the actual, after all the tests, results came back.

12:00 Mike: And

12:01 Scott: So you're not working, you're just basically,

12:03 Mike: I'm just, I'm just hanging out at my dads and taking care of him,

12:06 Scott: watching to see how it lands with him.

12:07 Scott: Yeah.

12:07 Scott: Yeah.

12:07 Mike: And uh, and once he got outta the hospital, he sort of perked up considerably.

12:11 Mike: Then once the diagnosis came, it was like, okay, and then.

12:13 Mike: And then there was all these things about his diet and this and medications and I had to take him for radiation.

12:18 Mike: And

12:19 Scott: did you become his care?

12:20 Scott: Oh,

12:20 Mike: yeah.

12:21 Mike: Yeah.

12:22 Mike: No, for my brother and I both did.

12:23 Mike: It was mostly me.

12:24 Mike: 'cause like my brother had his own place to live and stuff like that.

12:25 Mike: And, and, uh, I'd been living out in Ontario for the most part, for the pa previous three years.

12:29 Mike: But then I just moved in with my dad and, and yeah.

12:31 Mike: Took care of him until he died.

12:33 Roger: And, and this is all when you were 29?

12:35 Mike: Yeah.

12:36 Roger: You were given this news and had to deal with it all in your, in your formative years, right?

12:41 Roger: Like, like it really hit you.

12:43 Roger: Fast and, and

12:44 Mike: it was a, it was a big turning point for me because the previous three years had been, it was kind of like my university years because I was just working, uh, I was living with some really good friends.

12:54 Mike: I was working at the job I loved, we did everything a lot.

12:57 Mike: We were, you know, working out a lot and working a lot, and partying a lot, doing everything a lot.

13:03 Mike: And it was just about.

13:04 Mike: Me, me, me and me.

13:05 Mike: You know, I was just, you know, living a bit of a rockstar life and having a great, great time.

13:08 Mike: And then it very quickly changed gears to like, okay, no family is in trouble and, and people need help.

13:14 Mike: And, and my father, who had always been so capable, he was always had some project on the go or some reno he was doing, or some property he was fixing up.

13:21 Mike: And we were always just going from project to project to project, oh, we gotta go here and pick up the sun.

13:25 Mike: We gotta get the money from here and go there and go to the hardware store and pick this thing up.

13:29 Mike: And then we gotta go in there and put the ladder up and get on the roof.

13:31 Mike: And.

13:31 Mike: God, and all of a sudden here's, he can't do anything.

13:32 Mike: Yeah.

13:32 Mike: You know, like, and, and, uh, he's just, his balance is off.

13:34 Mike: He's weak.

Chapter 7: Giving Up His Life to Move In With His Dying Dad

13:35 Mike: He's, you know, it's sort of like, okay, what was

13:37 Roger: it like to, what was it like to watch that

13:39 Mike: really, really hard?

13:40 Mike: My, my dad wasn't old, but he was old before his time.

13:43 Mike: He was only 57 when he, when he passed away.

13:44 Mike: But he'd already sort of like, he aged a great deal in a very short period of time, and, and he went from being very capable to sort.

13:50 Mike: Like, you know, you know, and he, I, I mean, and that had been going on for a while 'cause he'd had some other health things.

13:55 Mike: He had some like edema in his feet.

13:57 Mike: So he sort of had a bit of an, like an old man walk, even though he wasn't that old.

14:02 Mike: And, and uh, it's funny how your perspective on those things.

14:06 Mike: Changes, you know, and he always had some henchman kind of living with him.

14:09 Mike: A buddy who was on, you know, sort of down on his luck, helping him with some Reno or something.

14:14 Mike: And I remember my dad around that time, he needed something taken to Revenue Canada.

14:16 Mike: So you gotta, I need you to, I don't wanna put it in the mail 'cause I wanted to get there in time.

14:20 Mike: You know, I need you to take this to the office downtown.

14:23 Mike: I'm like, yeah, well that's fine.

14:24 Mike: I'll take it.

14:24 Mike: So, okay, well here's what you do.

14:24 Mike: I was like, you take the truck, take Harry.

14:27 Mike: You need at least two.

14:28 Mike: Three.

14:28 Mike: You mean these three guys?

14:29 Mike: And like, so one guy, so you can like, drive around the block.

14:31 Mike: So the parking's a fucking nightmare down there.

14:33 Mike: So like one guy can drive around the block and you go in and dah, and then you like, like a fight heist.

14:39 Mike: I'm like, no, because that's the way he would need to do it.

14:40 Mike: Because I'm like, no, no.

14:41 Mike: You know, like I I, I'm just gonna take the bus down there.

14:44 Mike: Yeah.

14:44 Mike: And I'm not gonna park at all.

14:45 Roger: Totally.

14:46 Mike: And I'm gonna walk in and, but I'm like, my dad couldn't walk the five blocks from the bus stop to where the office is or whatever.

14:52 Mike: And like, that just wasn't so, I mean, in his mind, this is the only way it can be accomplished.

14:56 Mike: I'm like, I can carry an envelope.

14:58 Mike: In my inside pocket and walk there and deliver the thing.

15:01 Mike: And maybe I'll even go get some lunch after or something.

15:04 Mike: You know, it's like, totally.

15:05 Mike: And he, uh, alright.

15:05 Mike: Mr. Independent, his expectation of the way things would unfold sort of had changed in recent years.

Chapter 8: The Falling Out — and the Reconciliation That Changed Everything

15:12 Scott: So I, I get this sense that he dominated your early years.

15:16 Scott: Mm-hmm.

15:17 Scott: Right?

15:18 Scott: Like, he always had something going on.

15:19 Scott: You're going along with him, bring the ladder, do the things.

15:20 Mike: Yeah.

15:21 Scott: And then.

15:23 Scott: Drastic word, but you escape to a certain degree because you get to go somewhere else.

15:28 Scott: You are No, that was a, you're living this life cross country away from him.

15:32 Scott: Yeah.

15:30 Scott: And away from that, and then all of a sudden you are pulled back.

15:33 Mike: Yeah.

15:34 Scott: And for a very drastic period.

15:36 Scott: Was that a traumatic feeling?

15:37 Scott: Was there something in there?

15:39 Scott: Like do, did you have a sense of like, I been returned?

15:42 Mike: After I graduated high school, I moved in with him for a while.

15:44 Mike: My, my mom's place was very much sort of very structured and nice and good food and do your homework and all that kind of stuff and no, no, no.

15:52 Mike: And then my dad's place was like New Year's Eve on Mars, 365 days a year.

15:57 Mike: You know, there was always him and his pals like doing whatever and like me and my buddies and my brother and his buddies could go there and, and hang out too.

16:04 Mike: It was like as long as we left the place clean and everybody like behaved, like behaved themselves, everything was.

16:08 Mike: Right, fine.

16:09 Mike: You know, and when I was younger, like my dad was a bit of a, you know, come on, we gotta do this.

16:13 Mike: Like, it was just like, there was no, uh, arguing about it.

16:15 Mike: But then when I started to get older and going back to school and working my own jobs and doing stuff like, you know, you, you do start becoming a man on your own a little bit.

16:23 Mike: And it got to the point where I was like, I can't just fucking drop everything for you every time you ask me.

16:27 Mike: He is like, and he just like, could not compute.

16:28 Mike: We ended up having a really big falling out and uh, and then I just fucking launched out the door and went and stayed at a buddy of mine's place for a few weeks and then.

16:37 Mike: And then my brother called me and said like, uh, dad just told me that if you don't come and get your shit out of the house, you know, and you know, the next day it's all gonna end up on the lawn.

16:44 Mike: And I, I spent a half an hour, all my buddies stood outside, like with all these boxes, just like shoveling all my stuff into boxes while my dad just like shrieked at me the whole time.

16:53 Mike: We didn't speak for about nine months after that.

16:55 Mike: And then my brother and, and him had a falling out.

16:58 Mike: And then he is like, and then he phoned us both.

17:00 Mike: He's like, listen, neither of my sons are talking to me.

17:02 Mike: Something is wrong.

17:03 Mike: Please come and talk to me.

17:05 Mike: And so we all went and had a big hash out of all this stuff.

17:07 Mike: And basically it was just a really painful and janky transition of like, yeah, dad, we're not employees.

17:13 Mike: We're not minions.

17:14 Mike: You know, like we, and.

17:16 Mike: We're developing our own lives and our own jobs and our, you know, and, and we, you know, when I say like, I gotta study.

17:21 Mike: I'm not trying, just trying to blow you off.

17:24 Mike: I'm not trying to subvert what you're trying to do.

17:26 Mike: I have my own stuff that I have to do, you know, and I'm managing my time.

17:31 Mike: You know, like, and he's like, okay, yeah, I get it.

17:33 Mike: A slow, janky.

17:33 Mike: Painful process, but on the other, on, on the other side of it, we were all sort of closer than ever.

17:37 Mike: So, you know, by that time I think my brother and I felt a bit more freedom to just, you know, pursue things.

17:43 Mike: And then my dad was like completely supportive of all those things and everything.

17:47 Mike: But yeah, I had been largely on my own.

17:49 Mike: For the three years leading up to that and leading a pretty independent life on the other side of the country, like away from family.

17:55 Mike: And then you have to return.

17:57 Mike: And then you return and it's like, oh man.

17:58 Mike: And, and uh, you know, and there's a lot of things like around the house that had been neglected and, and you know, things, finances, and it's like, oh my god.

18:06 Mike: You know?

18:06 Mike: So it was sort of just getting a grip on all of that.

18:08 Mike: And

18:09 Roger: in a weird sort of way, it kind of feels like you were.

18:13 Roger: Being prepared for what inevitably happened.

Chapter 9: Anger, Therapy, and "The Cost of Loving Someone"

18:16 Roger: You know, he died at an early age.

18:19 Roger: You were quite young.

18:20 Roger: He was, he sounds like he was, you know, not difficult on you,

18:23 Roger: but he, you know, he let you fail.

18:25 Roger: He let you learn from those failures.

18:27 Roger: You know, he was kind of bossing you around a bit, but also like giving you, giving you that independence, like do you think then, I don't know, like

18:33 Roger: not in a spiritual way, but sort of a metaphysical way, like it all kind of was leading up to that moment of view.

18:41 Mike: Yeah.

18:42 Roger: Mean seeing him at a young age,

18:43 Mike: this is an interesting thing.

18:44 Mike: You know, my, my wife and I, you know, I, I, I have a bit of push and pull about how we deal with the boys and stuff sometimes, and a lot of my guy friends have this, you know, my, my wife says you're always yelling at them.

18:53 Mike: I'm like, I'm not yelling at them.

18:55 Mike: You've heard me yell, that's not yelling.

18:57 Mike: I said what I am, what I'm doing is speaking clearly.

19:01 Roger: Mm-hmm.

19:01 Mike: And without humor, because I need them to understand that what I'm saying right now is important, you know, and I also just don't want the first stern word they ever hear to happen out.

19:11 Mike: World and for them to be like, oh my God.

19:13 Mike: And then they, you know, it's like, it's just words, it's just, it's just volume.

19:17 Mike: It's just that like, you should be able to take that in and

19:19 Mike: Right.

19:20 Mike: I always say like with my old man, it's like I've never been more intimidated by anyone than my father.

19:27 Mike: And I've had other people in my life, you know, like that I've encountered in the workplace and, and in relationships and things I, you know, try to sort

19:32 Mike: of dominate me or, or, uh, you know, or, or, you know, run, run rough, shot over me in some ways, or intimidate me in some way, and I'm like, hmm.

19:42 Mike: I appreciate your effort, but you're No Bob Wasco.

19:44 Mike: I'm afraid.

19:46 Mike: You know, in, in a way.

19:46 Mike: I'm like, I didn't enjoy it probably while it was happening, but when I think about it, I'm like, what a gift.

19:51 Mike: What a gift.

19:52 Mike: Was that?

19:53 Scott: Do you have any sense from your dad?

19:54 Scott: Obviously, see it was a long time ago.

19:57 Scott: Did he speak about his dad?

19:58 Mike: Yeah.

19:58 Mike: So his dad,

19:59 Scott: does it feel similar Apple falling from the tree or,

20:01 Mike: um, my grandfather had been.

20:03 Mike: Uh, in and outta jail all through his younger years.

20:07 Mike: He, we knew that he, um, did time in Manitoba and he did time in Al Alberta.

20:12 Mike: Um, his first conviction was in Manitoba during the Depression when he was 18, and he whacked some guy over the head down by the railroad tracks and robbed him.

20:21 Mike: And, uh, and got caught and he got sentenced to 18 months in jail and back when they would give you lashes.

20:27 Mike: So, I mean, if you ask my dad, he was the greatest guy that ever lived.

20:30 Mike: And if you ask my mom, she said he was the meanest son of a bitch he'd ever met.

20:34 Mike: So somewhere between.

20:36 Mike: Greatest guy in the world and meanest son of a bitch.

20:38 Roger: When, uh, after he died, who, who did you go to for advice?

20:42 Scott: Did you have a defacto father or did you

20:45 Mike: Not really, you know, uh, I was really at sea after, after he,

20:47 Mike: after he passed away, I was very, uh, emotionally erratic and angry.

20:52 Mike: Really full of anger.

20:54 Mike: And I could tell that I wasn't really, you know, in the driver's seat, you know,

20:57 Mike: and drinking too much and couldn't sleep.

21:00 Mike: And so I ended up going to see, uh, a shrink wonderful guy named Paul Sabina.

21:04 Mike: I would actually be surprised if he's still alive 'cause he was fairly old even back then.

21:08 Mike: And he was really interesting actually.

21:10 Mike: He, uh, and he was like, so why are you here?

21:12 Mike: And I was like, well, my, my dad died and he lung cancer and took care of him for, you know, six months and says that, and, and he was like, were you close with your dad?

21:22 Mike: And I was like, yeah, very.

21:23 Mike: And he said, uh, did you love him?

21:25 Mike: Yeah.

21:26 Mike: And he said, well.

21:27 Mike: And he, how'd he die?

21:28 Mike: I'm like, cancer.

21:29 Mike: I said, and you took care of him?

21:30 Mike: And I'm like, well, he's like, that all sucks.

21:32 Mike: He says, that's terrible.

21:33 Mike: And he said, well, he says, there's not much I can do about that.

21:36 Mike: He says, what's happening to you is, is that you're grieving, that you're in a state of grief.

21:40 Mike: And he said, uh, if, if you weren't in a state of grief, then I would.

21:46 Mike: I would be worried.

21:47 Mike: He said, uh, he goes, I think, 'cause we can talk about your dad a little bit if you want.

21:50 Mike: He says, but I, I think that your father's death is just the biggest thing that's happened to you lately.

21:56 Mike: And he said, I think that, uh, your father's death is the proverbial straw that's kind of bowing your back a little bit.

22:03 Mike: And he said, what we're gonna do is we're gonna go and look at the laundry list of everything else that's happened to you in your life.

22:09 Mike: And he goes, but as far as like feeling sad about your dad being passed away, there's nothing I can do about that.

22:14 Mike: He says, that's just grief.

22:15 Mike: And that just takes time.

22:16 Mike: And he goes, uh, that's just a perfectly natural response.

22:20 Mike: And, uh, that's the cost of loving somebody is that when, when that love's taken away or they are taken away, then grief is the cost of loving someone.

22:28 Mike: And I was like,

22:29 Scott: did you find yourself agreeing with him or,

22:31 Mike: yeah.

22:31 Mike: I was like, oh, okay.

22:32 Mike: And it was a really interesting process.

22:33 Mike: Like at the end of it, I sort of felt like I could, things that were sort of no-go zones for me for a long time, all of a sudden were like, yeah, I can talk about that.

22:41 Roger: What was an example of a no-go that he.

22:43 Roger: Pulled out

22:44 Mike: once I was at, I arrived at a, a party shortly after a really brutal fight had taken place and, and, uh, and this kid, um.

22:57 Mike: Got curb stumped.

22:58 Mike: Oh.

22:59 Mike: And, uh, and I, I arrived there just sort of after it happened.

23:02 Mike: And, and uh, that was a pretty traumatic thing to see.

23:04 Mike: And he di he was dead.

23:05 Mike: He died.

23:06 Mike: And like, and, and, uh, so I didn't really talk about that for a really long time.

23:09 Mike: And, and, uh, like I still hardly ever mentioned that, but I, I, uh, you know, I can see it as clear as day, but it, before this work, like there's no way I would even have mentioned that.

23:18 Mike: In a public setting.

23:20 Mike: And one thing that Paul said was, oh, don't worry.

23:22 Mike: The trauma's not over.

23:23 Mike: Like, you're gonna have all kinds of new trauma.

23:26 Mike: And then, and eventually I was feeling really good and I said, I think I'm done here.

23:30 Mike: And he is like, oh, great.

23:31 Mike: He's like, come back in 10 years after you've had a couple of kids, you'll be good and fucked up then.

23:36 Scott: So the, the death was the catalyst, but ultimately it created an avenue to deal with other things and, and give you an avenue to start to pursue.

23:45 Scott: A bunch of other stuff that had maybe nothing to do with the death, but luckily the death kind of let that happen.

23:51 Scott: So it's,

23:52 Mike: it's, it's sort of weird way, a death detour, a gift, you know, it's like, while we're on this detour, what else is going on?

23:57 Mike: What else has been left unchecked?

23:58 Mike: You know?

23:59 Roger: And

24:00 Roger: yeah, I always saw, I always saw therapy as sort of like a, an indulgent activity.

24:04 Roger: It felt like I don't really have anything to talk about and like, I don't wanna bother you.

24:08 Roger: And, but then when my dad died, it was like, I've got something to talk about and then it.

24:12 Roger: To your point, it turned into everything else except my dad.

24:15 Roger: It was everything.

24:16 Mike: Yeah.

24:17 Mike: I think it's more like going to the chiropractor.

24:17 Mike: It's like life will just bend you outta shape after a while and it helps to have somebody to like crack, crack, crack.

24:22 Mike: Sort of put you back in a way where you're a little bit more efficient.

24:25 Mike: Like, I haven't been to therapy for a long, long time.

24:28 Mike: I, you know, I generally feel.

24:29 Mike: You know, I get stressed, but I'm not a particularly anxious person or anything like that.

24:32 Mike: I, day-to-day things stress me out, but I, I find they're fairly causal and, but, uh, you know, I have friends who are like in, in therapy and it's helping them immensely.

24:39 Mike: And I was like, you know, maybe I've got a one day, a little bit of more time and a little extra money than maybe I will, but I don't feel a pressing need for it at the moment.

24:47 Mike: But I definitely did.

24:48 Mike: Back then.

24:49 Scott: Yeah.

24:49 Scott: Well, I think what Roger asked originally, which was if there was a, if you ended up having somebody that you were going to as a, a dad.

Chapter 10: Becoming a Dad and Finding His Father in Himself

24:54 Scott: Yeah, I guess Paul was

24:55 Mike: kind of

24:56 Scott: person, he became kind of like father because he was giving advice, I believe.

24:58 Scott: Yeah,

24:58 Scott: right.

24:59 Scott: Like it was specific and mostly obviously it was coming from you, but over the course of the, the year, so you progressed through therapy, you get out I guess, or finished with that for a period in time.

25:10 Scott: Um, I'm interested, so you're, there's a period I guess where you.

25:14 Scott: Become a father.

25:15 Roger: Mm-hmm.

25:16 Scott: Okay.

25:17 Scott: So I want to ask you, as you become a father, what's, what's running through your mind as you're becoming a father for the first time?

25:26 Mike: Oh, that's a really good question.

25:28 Mike: I feel like when my first son was, you know, getting into those d, you

25:34 Mike: know, toddler years where they can try your patients and stuff, I, I definitely noticed my anger flare a lot.

25:40 Mike: And I, and I and I was like, oh, like, you know, again, I'm Mr. Easy, easygoing.

25:45 Mike: And it's like, oh no, Bob Wasco is alive and well, like, like un under there, not far under the surface.

25:51 Mike: And like, you know.

25:52 Mike: This kid is like, not even three years old.

25:53 Mike: I don't think this is, uh, appropriate or helpful, you know, and so it, it did, you know, make me really, uh, just look at those tendencies and how,

26:03 Mike: you know, I think, you know, we're all influenced by the template that,

26:05 Mike: that we're raised with, you know, and, and, uh, and I think we have the luxury to, to look back and, and, and.

26:10 Mike: See which parts were useful and which parts weren't.

26:14 Mike: Not everything my dad did was useful.

26:16 Mike: You know, like he, you know, he was a pretty reactionary, reactive guy and,

26:20 Mike: and, uh, you know, and he was very much a, his way or the highway sort of guy

26:24 Roger: takes five people to go to the bank.

26:25 Mike: Yeah.

26:26 Mike: You know?

26:26 Mike: Exactly.

26:26 Mike: He needs a team of henchmen.

26:28 Mike: They're like, and he always had henchmen, you know, but, uh, um, but

26:33 Roger: now he learned that he learned that from his father.

26:35 Mike: Yeah.

26:36 Mike: You know, and, and, uh, so I don't know.

26:37 Mike: It wasn't all.

26:38 Mike: Uh, good, but it wasn't all bad either, and so I, I just, I try to sort of em employ the, the good parts that I can.

26:45 Mike: And, and

26:45 Scott: did it come to you though, as you're the, as your broker, like going into this world of a three yearold and a 4-year-old and a 5-year-old?

26:50 Mike: Yeah.

26:51 Scott: I mean, sometimes these things come to you and you go, okay, this is.

26:54 Scott: I'm gonna choose a path I'm gonna fork.

26:56 Scott: Yeah.

26:57 Scott: And I'm gonna go this way.

26:58 Mike: Yeah, definitely.

26:58 Mike: When I would feel my anger spike, I would definitely, it's just what I tell the boys to do when they, you know, I'm just like, I just step away for

27:04 Mike: a sec, take a few deep breaths and, and, uh, and I've actually found I'm not, I say this sounding like some kind of guru and I am not, I feel like by any stretch of the imagination.

27:15 Mike: But, but, uh, you know, I, I feel like in those moments where.

27:19 Mike: I want to like lose it a little bit.

27:20 Mike: I try and really like take a few deep breaths, step away from it.

27:23 Mike: And then I really try to, especially with my younger one now, and he is a bit difficult.

27:27 Mike: He's a bit a DHD and, and it's sort of, and I feel like just barking at him.

27:33 Mike: I do bark at him sometimes, but it's not the best.

27:36 Mike: Option, the better option is to like, Hey, man, like, come down, like actually to his level and be like, you know why I'm, I'm mad.

27:42 Mike: I'm sorry that I snapped at you.

27:44 Mike: You know, you know why I snapped.

27:45 Mike: And if you come down and just take the time to explain it in a way.

27:49 Mike: You know, where you treat him a bit more like he's someone in distress, but you know what I mean?

27:53 Mike: Like, it, it, it's like, you know, 'cause they're just pushing boundaries and stuff all the time and seeing how far they can go with things.

27:58 Mike: And with Eddie, my youngest one, it's like if there's anyone that I've encountered since my father's death, that reminds me of my father.

28:05 Mike: It's my youngest son.

28:06 Mike: It.

28:07 Mike: Like they have, that's a spooky thing.

28:08 Mike: Like I, I, I'm like, he was born 15 years after my dad passed away, and I'm like, I've seen this before.

28:14 Mike: You know?

28:15 Mike: Like, I, I, yeah, I, I'm like, I've, I had it from this direction and now I'm having it from this direction, and this is like a cosmic joke on me.

28:23 Mike: You know, like, and so sometimes I feel like I'm a little unfair to Eddie because I'm, I, my reaction is a lifetime in the making.

28:30 Scott: So he's like, dad, I'm gonna need you to drop me off at school.

28:32 Scott: We're gonna need a couple guys.

28:33 Mike: Yeah, actually, you know, it's like, or he's just a, he's, he's sort of a bit rigid in the way he does things in the same way that my dad did.

28:39 Mike: And I think that I'm pretty convinced, you know, my son has a DHD and the more reading I've done about it, the more I'm convinced like the old man

28:47 Mike: had a DH adhd, undiagnosed, a DH, ADHD for, you know, and I think a lot of his, his way or the highway was born outta the fact that like he just needed to control the situation so that he.

28:56 Mike: Could control the situation so he can knew what was going on.

28:59 Mike: Right.

28:59 Mike: He would never enter, enter into situations where he wasn't kind of the ringmaster because there was too much going on and he didn't, couldn't keep

29:06 Mike: track of all of it, you know, and it was, and he didn't wanna be the guy that didn't know what was going on.

29:12 Roger: What would your, what would your dad think of you as a, as a father today?

29:14 Mike: I think he'd be pretty proud.

Chapter 11: His Kids Ask Why Grandpa Died (and Want to Build a Robot of Him)

29:16 Mike: I think he'd be, you know, I think he would like, love the boys and you know, and I've already taught them how to play poker and stuff, so he'd be happy about that.

29:23 Mike: And you know, and

29:24 Mike: uh,

29:25 Mike: but if

29:26 Roger: you taught him to cheat in poker

29:28 Mike: Yeah.

29:29 Mike: No,

29:29 Mike: no.

29:30 Mike: Cheating.

29:30 Mike: We didn't learn that.

29:30 Roger: Do, do you talk about.

29:32 Roger: Him with your kids,

29:31 Mike: they ask about 'em all the time.

29:33 Mike: Oh, yeah.

29:34 Mike: You know, and, and he's always been, 'cause we have a picture, uh, of, of him in hanging in the house where it's like, uh, where I'm, I'm probably about two years old.

29:40 Mike: And when I was born, we lived in a rooming house in the West end.

29:44 Mike: And uh, and it's on the steps of that rooming house.

29:46 Mike: And I'm standing between his, he's sitting on the steps and I'm standing between his knees and I, we look very similar.

29:52 Mike: And he is got long hair and beard and like that.

29:54 Mike: And, and then I look a lot like my kids do.

29:57 Mike: And people come in like, oh, is that.

30:00 Mike: Is that Dash?

30:00 Mike: Was that dating?

30:01 Mike: I'm like, no, that's me.

30:02 Mike: The guy that's my dad.

30:03 Mike: And they're like, oh my God.

30:04 Mike: They're like, that's some crazy continuity there, but like, you know, and even the boys would see that picture and go, is that me?

30:10 Mike: And they're like, no, that's me.

30:12 Mike: And then they're like, oh, who's that?

30:13 Mike: I'm like, that's my dad.

30:14 Mike: And they're like, oh.

30:15 Mike: And like, they know, they see my mom's still around, so they know about Granny.

30:19 Mike: And then, and then my, my wife's parents are still around, so they know about Granny and Elizabeth and Granddad.

30:24 Mike: And they're like, well, where's your dad?

30:26 Mike: And it, it happened with both of them.

30:27 Mike: I'm like, oh, well he, he died and they were like.

30:29 Mike: And, and for them it, it, it opened up a whole, you know, like your dad died and, you know, well, yeah.

30:35 Mike: Like when, like, oh, years and years ago, man.

30:38 Mike: And, and they're like, but just like the concept of like, people's dads die.

30:42 Mike: Like, they were like, does that mean you are going to die?

30:45 Mike: And I was like, yeah, man, I am going to die like 100%.

30:48 Mike: And for my, you know, and they were both young when they came to those realizations.

30:52 Mike: Like, it's not gonna happen anytime soon, buddy.

30:54 Mike: I know.

30:55 Mike: Like, you're gonna be, hopefully you're gonna be.

30:56 Mike: Pretty old too when it happens, you know, like, and, and, uh, don't worry, it's not.

31:01 Mike: And it took a lot, especially for my younger one.

31:03 Mike: Took a lot of talking down,

31:04 Scott: After that, you know, and, and, uh, you know, and I had some really amazing conversations with my older one when he was younger.

31:10 Mike: And he'd just ask me all these questions and we were lying in bed one night and like I was reading to him and then he would ask me like,

31:15 Mike: well, your dad this, and he that, that, and he was like, he said, you know what I'm gonna be when I grow up.

31:21 Mike: And I was like, what are you gonna be?

31:22 Mike: He's like, I'm gonna be a guy who invents things like a scientist.

31:24 Mike: And, and I was like, oh, that's cool.

31:26 Mike: And I was, and he's like, yeah, and I'm gonna make a robot of your dad.

31:30 Mike: And I was like.

31:31 Mike: That's kind of terrifying, but like, but I appreciate the sentiment, you know, like that's really sweet.

31:36 Mike: Wow.

Chapter 12: Approaching the Age His Dad Died

31:37 Scott: Because I guess, I don't know if this is too on the nose, but you're approaching the age that he was, right?

31:43 Scott: Is that,

31:43 Scott: is that,

31:44 Mike: yeah, he was 57 when he passed away, and I'm 52.

31:45 Roger: So do you think about that?

31:47 Mike: Yep.

31:48 Mike: Sometimes.

31:48 Mike: I mean, my dad already had a whole bunch of health stuff going on by the time he was my age that I don't have, you know,

31:54 Mike: uh, my dad was a, a functional.

31:56 Mike: Alcoholic.

31:56 Scott: My dad died at 79.

31:58 Scott: Um, and in the back of my mind for some reason, I think, oh,

32:02 Scott: that's, I guess that's how long I have, which is ridiculous 'cause that's not how that works.

32:06 Scott: But I, it's like this clock, no, my head, it's a marker.

32:09 Scott: It's just your

32:10 Mike: first

32:11 Scott: that you just tick over and you're like, well, I'm getting closer to that age and I can't get away from that thought.

32:16 Scott: And so I guess, I don't know if that occurs to you, like

32:19 Mike: Absolutely.

32:20 Scott: If you pass that clock, then you're like, well, I'm living on borrowed time now.

32:23 Scott: Like this is extra time.

32:24 Mike: Absolutely.

32:24 Mike: I mean, I have to say like my uncles are still around and they're in their seventies and like.

32:29 Mike: They're actually largely in pretty good health.

32:31 Mike: They have,

32:31 Mike: you know?

Chapter 13: Mike's Grief Analogy: The Crater That Never Fills

32:31 Mike: But, but, uh, so I'm like, okay, well that doesn't mean every man in our family is condemned.

32:36 Mike: There's genetic 57, there's, and this

32:38 Roger: environment,

32:39 Mike: you know, and they still look pretty good and something like that.

32:40 Mike: So I'm like, oh, that's, you know, maybe I'll end up like Uncle Ron, you know, like there's every, doesn't need to happen.

32:46 Scott: I cannot shut that voice off.

32:47 Scott: I know.

32:48 Scott: Yeah.

32:48 Scott: And shut that voice,

32:49 Mike: you know?

32:48 Mike: And I mean, it's like, it's a

32:50 Scott: trope though, too, right?

32:50 Scott: Like it's just the world

32:52 Mike: is a totally different place, like, you know.

32:54 Mike: Yeah.

32:54 Mike: My dad like smoked a pack a day and like.

32:56 Mike: You know, had burgers for lunch every day and, you know, and, and would come home and have a couple of beers and then a bottle of wine with dinner, and then a couple more beers and a cognac before bed.

33:06 Mike: That was like every day for a lifetime.

33:09 Mike: Also, my dad, I was, when I was born, he was in his twenties, so, I mean, I didn't have my first kid till I was 39, so I was like, I, I'm a lot older, so the impetus to sort of take care of myself and be around for longer is, you know,

33:20 Mike: is, you know, pretty strong, you know.

33:22 Scott: And I'm just reeling at some of the stories.

33:24 Scott: Yeah.

33:25 Scott: I think there's such a fascinating,

33:27 Roger: you're such a great storyteller.

33:28 Scott: Yeah.

33:28 Mike: Well, can I tell you one cheesy analogy I have for grief and, and, and losing people, please.

33:33 Scott: Yeah.

33:34 Mike: Um, I always, I I, I bust this out for some of my friends sometimes that when they're going through this, 'cause it just seems so overpowering in the moment.

33:42 Mike: I, I, you know, whether it's your dad or whoever you, you lose, you know, when you have that sort of loss and that grief.

33:48 Mike: I always think of this documentary that I watched a while back and it was all about, um, the battlefields of, of World War I.

33:54 Mike: And you can still go to them in

33:57 Mike: France, you know, and, and, uh, they're all like just farmers' fields and stuff now, but you can still see like the trenches and like where they were, like the contours and the land and where the big craters are and stuff like that.

34:07 Mike: And I kind of think that like losing someone is like that when the, when the definition happens is like this catastrophic explosion in your life that happens, uh, that where you just.

34:18 Mike: You can't really function and you can't really take in normal day-to-day things.

34:22 Mike: And, and, uh, and the shock waves of that blast can be felt for a long time afterwards.

34:28 Mike: And then eventually the dust settles and you, your ears stop ringing and, and you can eventually start to sort of still traumatic, but you can start moving around a little bit.

34:39 Mike: But slowly over time, little bits of grass and shrubs and stuff start growing back.

34:47 Mike: Eventually the landscape will look normal again, but there will always be a discernible crater there.

34:55 Mike: It's not a thing that you get over, it's a thing that you just get used to.

35:00 Roger: What does it gets better sort of look like.

35:01 Mike: You know what?

35:01 Mike: I would just say, you know, take it one day at a time.

35:05 Mike: Be good to yourself.

35:07 Mike: Let time do its thing and.

35:13 Mike: This is hard to say to everybody 'cause not everybody has this a great relationship with their father, but you can allow yourself to dwell on the on the good parts.

35:22 Mike: In my case, you know, my dad was mostly really awesome, but it's also okay to admit the parts that weren't great and you just have to kind of approach those.

35:33 Mike: As they come.

35:34 Scott: Thanks Mike.

35:35 Scott: Thanks for being here.

35:36 Mike: Oh, thanks for having me.

35:37 Roger: And thanks so much for watching another episode of Dead Dads.

Chapter 14: Final Thoughts & Where to Follow

35:42 Roger: Uh, if you want to please do us a favor, like, subscribe, share all the things.

35:48 Roger: We're now on TikTok.

35:50 Roger: We're now on Instagram.

35:51 Roger: We've got a sub stack.

35:53 Roger: Do we still have the fax machine set up?

35:54 Scott: Yeah.

35:55 Roger: Yeah.

35:56 Scott: Are, have you been manning it?

35:57 Roger: Have we got facts?

35:59 Scott: We probably, I guess guess you haven't been looking into it.

36:01 Roger: We should probably check that.

36:02 Scott: I've never been on TikTok before.

36:04 Roger: Oh, you're about to blow your mind.

36:06 Roger: Thanks again for joining us.

36:07 Roger: Hope to see you again next time.

36:07 Scott: Thanks everybody.

36:09 Music: It's a weird, sad, funny, but we're here to help you laugh.