Why Dark Humor Helps When You're Grieving

This is the word-for-word transcript of the debut episode of Dead Dads Podcast, where hosts Scott and Roger introduce themselves and share the deeply personal stories of losing their fathers.

Chapter 1: Intro

0:00 Hi, I'm Scott. And I'm Roger.

Chapter 2: The idea behind the podcast

0:01 And we're two guys who realize that the only thing harder than finding a place to talk about your dead dad is a place where you're allowed to laugh about it. This is Dead Dads.

Chapter 3: A sad, weird, funny podcast about losing your dad

0:10 It's a weird, [music and singing] sad, funny,

0:14 but we're here to help you laugh. It's the Dead [music] Podcast. [singing]

Chapter 4: Why we started the podcast

0:28 [music]

0:33 Hey, I'm Roger. And I'm Scott. And our dads are dead. Still. Still dead. Why are we here? What are we doing here?

Chapter 5: Why men don’t talk about grief

0:40 Well, we're here because there's really not a lot of great places for men to talk about grief and to talk about their experience when their father dies. And

0:49 you and I were chatting one day and we thought to ourselves, we should start a podcast because you and I love to talk.

Chapter 6: Learning through conversation with other men

0:54 We love to learn. We love to chat with other guys. We love to learn. Said learn twice.

1:00 One thing we need to learn is how many times to say learn. But I think the hard part to explain to people and I talk about this is like why are you guys doing this? Like yes this is a problem but why?

1:08 Yeah.

1:09 And I don't know that we know but I think we want to we're we have enjoyed the process. We're ready to try and see if this makes the grief a little bit

1:18 easier because one thing we've learned is that grief is different for absolutely everybody. And uh for me it helps to talk about it whether it's with a

1:25 counselor or whether it's with a buddy or whether it's with a perfect stranger who's also lost their dad. I find myself um you know really learning a lot from

1:33 other guys and their experiences. And hopefully through the men that we talked to on this show, you know, those that are watching and listening can learn from them.

1:40 So maybe that's you. Maybe your dad's dead recently. Maybe he died a long time ago. If you're interested in learning a little bit more about how guys are

1:48 getting through this and even having a couple of laughs, we hope you join us.

1:51 Now, it's really important to mention that we are not doctors. We're not therapists. We're not counselors. We're not even in the medical industry. In fact, I thought ICU was a university,

2:02 which turns out it's not. I thought catheter was a type of church. Oh, definitely not. It's definitely not.

2:07 So, I think given that disclaimer, if you're still interested, we'd love you to come along and take a listen. Yeah. Welcome to Dead Dads.

Chapter 7: Getting to know Scott and Roger

2:16 Roger Scott. Before we get involved in this whole podcast business, I want to give everybody a chance to get to know you a little bit better.

2:25 So, I got a couple of questions that I'm going to ask you.

2:28 They're not hard. There's no math. Super easy. Okay. But I just want you to do your best. I I think I can do it. Okay.

Chapter 8: Comfort shows and the things that help us unwind

2:36 What's your comfort rewatch? So, you've had a rough week, rough day, whatever. You come home, you're on the couch.

2:42 What's the thing that you put on that's just sort of soothing, I guess, helps you with your helps you process the day?

2:48 That's an easy one. It's uh it's I watch VEP. Uh if you ever watch VEP, you know,

2:53 Julia Louie Drifus, um Tony Hail, plus many more. Uh Julie Louis Drifus is the vice president of the United States.

3:01 It's my absolute favorite show of all time. The writing is unbelievable. It is so funny. Uh it's it's crude. It's like that perfect sort of satire black humor.

3:12 It gets me laughing every single time. Favorite Jonah insult?

3:16 That's like uh using a quissant as a dildo. [laughter] It doesn't work and it makes a mess.

3:23 What's the first ever probably cassette you ever bought?

3:27 Yeah, good question. Um the first So the first cassette that I ever bought and actually coincidentally I bought it on

3:35 CD when CDs came out. I feel like we're talking about ye olden days all of a sudden. Uh was CNC Music Factory.

3:42 Nice. Yeah. Nice. And what was the what was the big hit then? It's going to make you sweat. Going to make you sweat.

3:46 I can't do the dance. I maybe can throw in the vocal later on if you're happy.

3:50 But CNC Music Factory I own on cassette and on CD cuz I was a fan. And when you're a fan, you got to do that,

Chapter 9: Scott’s dad: cancer and choosing MAID

3:57 right? So Scott, you um you lost your dad. My understanding is about three or four years ago.

4:03 Yeah. 2021 my father passed away. Um he had cancer but uh he had maid which is

4:11 medical assistance and dying and medical assistance and dying like explain that a little bit more like what is what exactly is involved when that happened.

4:18 The understanding of maid and the reason that he chose that is it's a decision that the patient gets to make. Uh it's a

4:26 reason ultimately if if you are in a state where you are too far gone and the medical community supports this then you

4:33 are allowed to choose um to have this assistance in dying. So you basically get to choose how you go which was for my dad which was huge um

4:42 because he had cancer for uh quite a long time.

4:45 No, he had cancer for again a a relatively short amount of time. So it was COVID and so it just got of COVID

Chapter 10: When the diagnosis suddenly became serious

4:52 which was uh late 2020 he was diagnosed and there was a period where it wasn't that serious I guess and then it was

4:59 immediately serious and so it changed really quickly and so between I would say November December of 2020 when we thought it was a possible recovery and

5:08 um January February when there was no chance of recovery and March when he chose maid and he chose that because he

5:15 was really afraid really afraid of becoming what he would say as a vegetable. He was really afraid of um

5:23 losing the ability to like you know that classic like in bed and all you can do is blink. And he would say often when I was a kid um push me in front of a train

5:32 if that ever happens to me or off a cliff which as a kid that's that's not it's not on your list of things not on your list of things you expect your dad to say to you.

5:40 Yeah. Exactly.

5:41 That's that's that's that sucks. But you were telling me that he also he had a bit of a slip and and fell and and hit

5:48 his head. He did. What how did that happen? What was involved there?

5:52 It was a few years before this. And so it was a bit of a bumpy road definitely for his last arguably few years of his life. And so he was um as I think a lot

6:01 of dads do, he was determined to keep fit. There's this period where keep fit, have fun,

6:06 keep fit uh becomes the mantra and every dad seems to pick like I'm eating almonds, you know, or he would often say, I get a lot of fruit and it would

6:14 be in the summertime for like a week or so, right?

6:16 Yeah. And so he was trying to keep fit and he was going to the swimming pool. My dad went through a pomegranate phase. Oh yeah. Yeah, that'll do it.

6:23 Yeah. So he was going to the swimming pool and um one day when he was at the pool there was um a particular piece of

Chapter 11: The concussion that changed his personality

6:31 ground that was I guess slippery for some reason and he slipped and he fell and he hit his head and he developed a

6:39 concussion which taught us a lot about concussions because there are again there are a lot more in the news I think every year but that taught us that one

6:47 of the side effects is you know it can like drastically change a person's personality and he became kind of a different guy And that for him was a

6:55 slope that ended with him choosing to try to commit suicide and then he was unsuccessful and he came out of it and

7:03 we thought there was a different path for him but I think really you know for the last three years before that like it was we were we weren't sure if he really

7:11 was happy that he was unsuccessful anyway what happened was he recovered he came out he was not better but he was

7:18 alive and and functioning and um and then I think this whole cancer thing arguably and it'll, you know, be discussion point forever is when I when

7:26 he was diagnosed with cancer, I think he might have thought maybe this is the way it was supposed to go.

7:31 What do you think, um, his suicide attempt taught you about your dad and his sort of frame of mind going into,

7:42 you know, having cancer and and it getting it getting sort of progressively worse?

7:46 I mean, his suicide attempt taught me what it made me think about. Um because where he did it was he chose to go to

Chapter 12: His suicide attempt and the shock that followed

7:54 this really remote area. He lives in Alberta in this remote area and he went down to the river and um he tried to

8:02 slit his wrists. I guess his suicide attempt taught me that I had not I didn't see that coming. I mean, he he

8:10 had no sort of warning signs, which sounds so uh ridiculous, but he wasn't like he had multiple attempts or made any sort of uh you know jokes about it.

8:21 It just happened one day. Um and so it taught me that I learned to be a bit scared because things are uncertain and

8:28 that is a thing that I have to I think address every day is that fear.

8:33 Do you think that fear is now carried over into your adult life? the whole end of his life, the whole process between

8:39 his suicide and how he died, not the maid, but like how he felt when he died.

Chapter 13: Fear, uncertainty, and what Scott learned from it

8:45 Um, has has given me I do think fear, but also an incentive.

8:51 Like I don't think he felt great about his life when he died because I can you expand on that? Like what what did he not feel great about? He didn't

8:59 seem I guess in your in your head you want to see this person who's sort of smiling and beautififically looking out and saying I'm so you know grateful and

9:08 here's the things that I'm grateful for and here's what I learned and that sort of thing. He was he was visibly scared of the end. He was he was upset like he

9:16 wasn't going to be around to help anymore and he felt like his job as a dad was un unfulfilled.

9:22 And so S was Sandy was really angry when he died.

9:26 I think he was he was angry and disappointed. Yeah. And it really bothered me that he I I don't mean this

9:33 blamely, I guess, but blamely is not a word.

9:36 No, I don't think I mean that vicifilously. [laughter]

9:40 I don't think I mean this as a condemnation maybe is um he he let that happen too. But I think it bothered me

9:48 that he let it happen to himself and he didn't actively try to make his life better. And that was what pushed me. I thought, okay, I have to make my life

Chapter 14: Turning grief into motivation to live differently

9:55 better. I have to challenge myself to not be in that position. What can I do now? What steps can I take? And that's really I think a big part of how his

10:05 death was a catalyst.

10:08 Where do you think you're at now with that though? I'm on a 30 on a scale of 1 to 70. I

10:16 think it's a I joke because I think it is kind of an interesting but maybe challenging thing to say where are you at? But in true spirit of the question,

Chapter 15: Going to therapy after losing his dad

10:27 I have gone to therapy for almost the entirety of the time since he passed.

10:31 So you went into therapy pretty much right away.

10:33 Um I should have went in sooner, but I went in um about 5 months after he passed um after a realization that I was

10:42 angry and I was unhappy and there was a lot of things that were not working out.

10:46 that I think to go back to the spirit of your question is where I am now is I feel like I have a set of tools that I

10:54 can that I can use in those moments because grief is still there and still occurs but I feel like I have a set of tools like okay sometimes things hit you

11:03 sideways. We talked a little bit about these like sudden moments like a song or uh you know like I know for you like the Blue Jays are playing or things like

11:11 this and we I'm sure we'll talk about but I think I I feel like I have this set of tools that I can that I can kind of

11:18 bring up and it can help me get through it and that gives me confidence and that's where I feel as I feel a bit more confident about my grief. When I start

11:25 to think about the the pressure of trying to make that problem that he had not happen, um i do think about my

11:33 family. I think about the position that I occupy in my family about being a dad and the effort that I put into being a

Chapter 16: Becoming a father and redefining what matters

11:40 dad. And I I care about being a dad. And I think that makes me feel a sense of satisfaction and happiness that every

11:48 time there's an opportunity to, you know, double down and try to be more involved. um which is tough. You know,

11:54 we're all young modern professionals um trying our best. But I I take those opportunities and then I try to think

12:01 each of those times are times that I did that because I didn't want to feel like I had ever let an opportunity go to to

12:09 keep working towards that goal of feeling satisfied on the day that I die.

12:12 Overall, there's a scenario where I feel like I have a set of tools. I've moved on into a place where for me, grief is not every day. It's it's sudden or

12:21 sideways and especially when you're recording grief podcasts and laughing about it, but it's it's not something that takes me takes me every day. But I want to ask a little bit about your dad.

Chapter 17: Roger’s dad and a five-year battle with cancer

12:33 He uh he he passed away almost a year ago today. Um in fact, it was December 23rd uh 2024.

12:42 So um he had been sick with cancer for uh for almost five years. In fact, when he first got diagnosed, um he was given

12:51 it was anywhere between like six months to a year, but he kept extending it. Um he's incredibly healthy, you know, all

12:59 things considered. Um we used to joke that he would eat like a supermodel. Uh he was very active, played golf at least three or four days a week.

13:06 Super models like Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. [laughter] And lots of cocaine.

13:10 Um he uh you know, he had climbed Mount Kilimanjaro like you know only a few years ago. M um and so when he when he first got sick

13:19 and he started to recover, we got really like really positive about it and and you kind of get into this rhythm of like cuz he's a mountain climber. I mean the challenges that he's already achieved,

Chapter 18: The cycle of hope and setbacks during treatment

13:29 right?

13:29 You go through these sort of like hills and valleys of of uh of treatment where like he's very low, his cancer count is really high, like this is looking bad

13:37 and then all of a sudden he would just get better and then you would start to feel great and then he would dip it. He would dip again. So we went through these like periods and I feel like we

13:46 probably had four or five six of those sort of ups and downs. But then he went on he went on a trip with my mom uh to

13:53 Europe. They went on like a river broke boat cruise and he started to complain of like almost like a flu like symptoms while he was on the boat and his cancer was in his liver and in his esophagus.

14:04 So he started feeling kind of fluish. I remember talking to him on FaceTime and he just he just looked a bit sort of down like nothing really too severe. Um,

Chapter 19: The moment it became clear things were changing

14:13 they came home from this trip and had jet lag like anybody else would, except it felt like his jet leg never went away and and my mom's did.

14:22 What was your mental state when you realized that it's not going away? Did you think this is this is something or did you think, oh,

14:29 it's, you know, we're on the right track? Yeah, it was it, you know, we religiously would go over to my parents house every Sunday for for dinner usually and we'd bring, you know, our

14:37 son Cooper and and, you know, he was at the time six and he him and my dad were like best buddies and you could just tell that he was putting on a brave

14:45 face, but his energy just was not there for for Cooper. And um it was it became more than just um you know tiredness. It

14:55 was also, you know, dizzy and and he would have a very difficult time in the middle of the night sleeping. Um, you could just tell that his body was slowly shutting down.

15:05 Were you moving into despair or were you kind of like, I got to make a brave face?

15:10 I think it was a blend of brave face and sort of going into like action mode,

15:16 like, okay, this I think this is starting to happen and, oh, I guess we're doing this. like I guess you know I guess this is you know this is

15:24 something that we thought might come one day and here it is. In fact there was only about 10 days in between him

15:31 starting to feel low and then him ultimately choosing mate as well. But I remember there was one day where him sleeping was difficult and him getting

15:39 out of bed was difficult and him going to the bathroom was difficult and my mom just couldn't take care of him anymore.

15:44 Like literally physically couldn't lift him. Um,

Chapter 20: The moment Roger realized his dad was dying

15:47 which is a thing that also gets talked about a lot, which is the burden on the other.

15:51 Yeah. And I I even went over one day to watch the hockey game with him just to sort of be with him. And I had to help him on the toilet and I had to literally

16:00 pick him off off the floor because he fell off the toilet. And that was the moment where I was completely shocked

16:07 into like this is actually actually happening. Yeah.

16:12 He's no longer the person that I know as my dad. Yeah. As soon as you see as soon as you see your hero, you know, naked on the floor,

16:21 that's it. Like it just your your whole world shatters immediately.

16:26 And so for me, it just completely shattered. And and that was the moment that we knew that he needed to go into a hospital of some

16:34 sort or he needed to have added care because my mom just couldn't do it. He had no energy. Sorry, no like nothing in

16:42 him as far as it was, you know, dead weight. [laughter] Yeah.

Chapter 21: The difficult conversation about MAID

16:46 Um, pardon the pun, but the um that moment made us realize this is a fastmoving train that wasn't going to

16:53 slow down. And so there was a day where I summoned summoned I I asked my sister

17:00 to come over to my mom and dad's house and and you know, I talked to her in advance about this conversation that we all need to have

17:07 where So you woke up one morning and said, "I need to make this happen."

17:12 Yeah. Yeah. It was more like it was more like there's a conversation we need to have happen because my dad had talked about maid in the sense that he doesn't

17:20 want to be a burden and he doesn't want to be in a position much like your dad where he's you know sort of in a vegetative state. He he wants to do

17:28 this. However, he had not put any of the planning in place. He had not signed any papers. He had not provided any any of

17:36 the um he he had not started the steps you need to go through. And so I thought it was important that before he became incapacitated, we had the conversation.

17:45 And so one day, um, I went over and my mom and I and my sister, you know, sat him down or he was already sitting down and and we said, "Hey, Dad, you know,

Chapter 22: Asking his father what he wanted at the end

17:55 we're not sure how this is all going to turn out, but I think it's important we have a, you know, conversation about it." Now,

18:01 you know, you had um you had mentioned maid in the past, and you know, is that something you're still doing? I did bring I did bring it up.

18:09 Yeah. Um hardest conversation I've ever had to have.

18:13 I said, "We're all hoping that this turns out okay. However, we need to we need to be prepared if if it doesn't."

18:20 And and I said, "You know, do you remember telling us that, you know, you you wanted?" And he said, "Yes." I said,

18:26 "Well, you know, how do you feel about that now?" And his response was, "Um,

18:30 I'll do whatever your mom wants." In the moment, I remember looking at my mom and she had this look of like sort of shock like, "I can't make this decision for you. How do you take this all in?

18:38 Yeah. Yeah. Like like she literally said to him like, "Ken, this is your life. I can't make that decision." And and you have to understand my mom used to be a

18:45 nurse and she was caring for my dad this entire time and and also like as a joke,

18:51 he she always just cared for him whenever he was sick anyways.

18:54 And so she was making decisions for him for a long time. Yeah. And so he would always say like,

18:58 "Ask my nurse sort of thing." And so this kind of was sim similar only this is your you know this is your life, right?

19:04 Yeah. and she said,"I can't make that decision for you. This is your life."

19:08 And and he said, "Yeah, I I would like to um you know, I would like to have that happen if we get to that to that point." So, that was difficult.

19:17 Ultimately, when he did get into the hospital, he he continued to considerably get worse. Um we eventually

19:25 or he eventually you know initiated the process which involves a lot of conversations with doctors,

19:31 conversations with nurses, paperwork like there's all a whole sort of protocol you go through which is great.

Chapter 23: Knowing the exact time his dad would die

19:37 It was ultimately you know December 23rd when you know at I think it was one 1:00 actually the reason I know it was 1:00

19:44 is because they wrote December 23rd 100 p.m. on a whiteboard at the end of his bed and I think they even circled it.

19:51 And I I to this day so helpful. I think to this day I always think to myself like he had to just stare at this time literally like he knew exactly when his

20:00 life was about to end which I think is kind of beautiful in in in some way because he got to do it on his own, you know, on his own terms and he got to see

20:07 all of his family and friends before he ultimately you know passed which was just like going to sleep. But then it's,

20:14 you know, it's December 23rd, it's Christmas. We had to then put on an immediate sort of brave face for for my son who, you know, deserved a a normal

Chapter 24: Grieving during Christmas with family

20:24 Christmas as could be. And we actually I I'm really proud of my wife and and my mom and we and my sister and her wife and we all came together and yeah, it

20:33 was really hard. There was a lot of tears. There was a lot of just like shock, frankly. In fact, this past Christmas was our first Christmas

20:42 without him since he passed. I mean, we we didn't have them that first Christmas, but we were just so in shock that we kind of just went through the

Chapter 25: The first Christmas without his dad

20:49 motions. And then I remember like Christmas dinner came this year and I sat at the head of the table where he usually sits [sighs]

20:58 and I just had this like immediate sense of weight feeling like um man like he used this

21:07 used to be and I'm not saying that I like you know took on his role immediately but but you're still you're still sitting down into his position.

21:14 Yeah. It just kind of it just so there's an immediate I don't want to pretend to be him but then I'm also in this position. I'm sure there's a bit of like you're running these scenarios.

21:21 Totally. Totally. So, this year was the first year. It was very difficult and it it's interesting. I I I

21:29 felt okay leading up to Christmas. And I think looking back um Do you mean okay as in you weren't?

21:38 I wasn't like super emotional. I wasn't like crying constantly. I was I was I was obviously thinking because you're air quoting okay.

21:44 Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't like tip top, but I think the adrenaline I'm a big I'm a big Christmas fan. Like, I love seeing my son excited and I think

Chapter 26: When grief hits after the holidays

21:54 sort of the leadup to that um masked a little bit of the grief because we were so sort of in the Christmas logistics mode.

22:02 Yeah. As soon as Christmas was over though,

22:05 like I I remember thinking like when I was a kid,

22:08 you know, Boxing Day was always like a kind of depressing day for me because it was it was all over the end of Christmas,

22:13 you know, it was all over, right? This year though, Boxing Day was like like I it hit me hard. I feel like like all the

22:19 adrenaline was gone, but also all the emotions actually flooded in and yeah,

22:27 it was it was incredibly uh uh difficult and to be honest like I don't think I'm doing awesome as we speak.

Chapter 27: The burden carried by the people who stay

22:36 Let me ask you officially. Yeah. so that you can take a minute for this because there's something I want to I want to bring up as well at this which is

22:45 the burden on the living and the challenge on the living and so I want to acknowledge something a couple things that you did and then ask you this question which is

22:53 you took a huge amount of responsibility in presenting maid you're basically offering him the end that is a huge responsibility that you took on yourself

23:01 and that often doesn't get discussed is how much the dead don't bear like they're gone like yes it's the ultimate punishment, but at the end of the day,

23:10 it's the partners that have to care for,

23:13 you know, it's the people that they leave behind. And so now that you are,

23:16 you know, you've you've presented this solution to him, which ultimately he chose and that process has happened and Christmas is the time that it happens.

23:24 Where do you feel like you are now knowing every year these holidays come up? Yeah,

Chapter 28: Why Roger feels guilt after his dad’s passing

23:29 you do this every year. I'll start by saying that I think death is a team event in the sense that um

23:36 I don't think it's going to catch on as a slogan.

23:38 It probably won't and yeah, I can't imagine what the jerseys would be like. Yeah.

23:43 Um I say that only because like I'm not alone. I do have my my my sister um and

23:49 my mom and and and our spouses and and my son and um but I'm I'm struggling in

23:58 this in the sense that I I have days where I'm quite numb about it all and I I feel guilty about that. I feel like I

24:06 should be like really intensely thinking about the memories more and instead I find myself kind of locked into the everyday,

Chapter 29: Living with grief day to day

24:17 you know, busyiness of it all and I have moments where I kind of forget about it and then I feel guilty about that and I

24:24 but the guilt sort of overplays the the presence and emotion side of it all. So guilt is my ultimate sort of um emotion.

24:34 And for me, my biggest tool that I've learned is that um that sense of guilt is part of my grief. [snorts]

24:42 And that sense of guilt probably won't go away. And that sense of guilt is one of my coping mechanisms for anything that goes bad is it's usually my fault.

24:53 And it's usually something that I have to live with.

24:56 Guilt almost as a personality type as a like an individual issue for this. Yeah. Yeah. So that's [clears throat]

25:02 I'm I'm I'd say I'm probably about a three out of 10. And so I think my my grief is is uh it's a work in progress,

25:09 but I think everyone's grief is a work in progress.

25:12 And so I I've kind of learned much like depression,

25:16 there's never an on andoff switch. It's sort of a constant. It just has highs and lows and you sort of start to live with it. I think I think I'm learning

Chapter 30: Why grief never really turns off

25:25 that grief is always going to be there and is always going to have highs and lows and you you you now have to um

25:34 learn to live with it. One of the things that we'll talk about I think over the course of this many many hopeful podcasts that we do is sometimes we

25:42 compartmentalize these and they tell great stories but there there are a long moments in between moments when you wake up in the morning and you think this is

25:50 the day that I'm going to tell my dad that I'm going to offer him maid or this is the morning when the time on the board is happening.

25:57 Yeah.

25:58 But and there are people who are engaged in those moments at this point. Um maybe you can finish and just

Chapter 31: Advice for anyone dealing with the passing of a parent

26:06 give your give something that again to that audience of people who are either dealing with this or just dealt with this and those moments are stretched out. Um, just know just know that um,

26:17 every everyone's grief is different and your grief um, is going to show up the way it shows up and you'll ultimately

26:25 learn to live with it and you'll you know, you'll um, you'll understand how it manifests and and that's okay if it's not perfectly dealt with immediately.

26:35 Um, but ultimately I think uh, tap into how you're feeling and don't be afraid to sort of feel those feels.

Chapter 32: Why therapy helps

26:44 thing that I tell people one is don't be afraid to go to therapy. That's usually it's a very succinct note. I think a lot

26:51 of people feel they don't know a therapist or they've never done therapy,

26:54 but I think therapy is um everybody can benefit from it. So, it's an easy win even if your parent hasn't died. I think most of us have something that we would ultimately benefit from talking about.

27:04 And so, I think the easy win is go to therapy. But what I say to people even who haven't or are about to start is there is no end and that's okay. Like the grief is [snorts] also educational.

Chapter 33: Why grief can teach you what matters

27:15 It also teaches you things about what matters to you. It gives you motivation.

27:20 Grief is not something to be avoided or to feel nervous about. It's something to almost embrace. And so don't shy away from grief. Embrace it.

Chapter 34: Closing thoughts and why this podcast exists

27:32 Learn from it. That was the first episode of Dead Dads.

27:35 Um, thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. Please, please subscribe,

27:39 like, leave a review, do all the podcasty things because it all helps to grow the show. And the most important thing for us is that this show um helps

27:48 guys out there. So, we need it to reach as many people as possible. So, if you know somebody who also could benefit from this show, um please share it with them.

27:58 Just go down and whisper it when you're in coffee shops. Whisper like, "Have you seen that show?" Totally. Yeah, that's the best way, I think.

28:03 Also, if you could leave notes on people's windshields, that usually works the best. Thanks.