How I Keep Talking About My Dad After He Died | Dead Dads Podcast | Grief Support for Men

0:00 Speaker 0: And I've heard it said before, and I don't think I realized it until Speaker 0: maybe maybe this moment that Speaker 0: if you don't get to talk about the people, then they they do disappear. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 1: Losing your dad sucks, but talking about it doesn't have to. Speaker 2: We are not therapists professionally. Speaker 2: We may like to think we are, but we are not. Speaker 1: We give really good advice though. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 1: Just not medically or therapeutically. Speaker 1: Although if you do feel better after it, that's okay. Speaker 1: You can still you can still listen to us. Speaker 2: But we will bill you for that. Speaker 2: We're also not doctors. Speaker 1: That's true.

0:40 Speaker 1: We're definitely not doctors. Speaker 1: I once was a doctor, but then was immediately removed from Speaker 1: doctor status. Speaker 2: You just had a lab coat on. Speaker 2: Like, that's not a doctor. Speaker 1: That that was the problem. Speaker 1: Enjoy the next episode of dead dads. Speaker 1: Scott, why don't you introduce our guest today? Speaker 2: Yes. Speaker 2: It is my pleasure to introduce Bill Cooper. Speaker 2: So I do know Bill personally as well. Speaker 2: Bill and I have done a variety of different things together. Speaker 2: We're on a board together about sponsorship marketing. Speaker 2: We run into each other at events. Speaker 2: Our daughters, yours a little bit older than mine, both play hockey, and so Speaker 2: we see each other around the hockey rink. Speaker 2: So we have managed to we're hockey dads. Speaker 2: That's a that's one of the clubs that we're in.

1:22 Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: I can admit. Speaker 0: Yes. Speaker 2: Yes. Speaker 2: You're a hockey dad. Speaker 2: So we are we are we are known to each other before this event. Speaker 2: Right. Speaker 1: So, Bill, why did you decide to do a podcast about your your Speaker 1: your Speaker 2: And do you feel like it was you that decided to do this podcast? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: I mean, I think when I first heard you mention it or saw you Speaker 0: mention it, I can't remember which, it occurred to me that, like, yeah, that's Speaker 0: bang on. Speaker 0: I mean, it happened, and I never talked about it. Speaker 0: But at the same time, I never felt the need to. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: But I thought, oh, that's kind of a cool idea. Speaker 0: And, frankly, I I hate to admit this, but I trust you. Speaker 0: So that That's Speaker 2: that's your Speaker 0: first probably influenced why I That's Speaker 1: your first mistake, Bill.

2:07 Speaker 2: Bill, it was really just to get you here to record you saying that. Speaker 2: I only say because I know your wife was also a proponent of this Speaker 2: as well, and so I wondered how much she had as inspiration for this. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: I think that's just the classic cliche. Speaker 0: She was willing to volunteer me as opposed to me. Speaker 0: But I think I might have raised my hand of my own volition had Speaker 0: it not been Speaker 2: I'll let the record state. Speaker 1: Bill, we wanted to get to know you a a little bit more. Speaker 1: So I'm curious. Speaker 1: If you've had a real hard day at work, you've you've made it home, Speaker 1: you put on some music, what is what is your typical go to? Speaker 0: In terms of music? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Is that Speaker 0: little bit folk influenced.

2:48 Speaker 0: Very nice. Speaker 0: But I don't mind a guitar solo here and there, so maybe a little Speaker 0: bit old old rock. Speaker 2: Is there something that you do is there a comfort watch? Speaker 2: Something that you do if you're feeling stressed. Speaker 2: What do you do to kinda relieve yourself of that feeling after maybe a Speaker 2: hard day or a challenging meeting, that kind of stuff? Speaker 0: Do a Sudoku or read a book or something, which is going to be Speaker 0: it's gonna evolve into a nap within minutes. Speaker 1: Interesting. Speaker 1: I'm just getting into my napping phase. Speaker 1: I'm forty four years old, and it's just starting to get there. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: I think I started at about six. Speaker 2: Is there Speaker 2: everybody has this, and I'm and I'm again, I know you a little bit, Speaker 2: but I'm I'm gonna challenge you.

3:28 Speaker 2: Is there a topic that you without provocation, at the drop of the hat, Speaker 2: you could talk about for twenty minutes with no prep work that everybody would Speaker 2: probably think is the most boring thing in the world, that it would be Speaker 2: super interesting to you? Speaker 0: Professionally, I got involved in a niche topic for quite a few years that Speaker 0: no one else wanted to talk about, and they were okay to hear me Speaker 0: talk about it. Speaker 0: So that got to my head and and that's sort of commercial rights. Speaker 0: So I feel like, professionally, I can talk I can amble on about that Speaker 0: for a long time, Speaker 0: which seems to induce other naps around the table for other people. Speaker 1: Curious when you're around the house, what's your go to fix it method?

4:10 Speaker 1: Like, how do you how do you, you know, are you a duct tape Speaker 1: guy? Speaker 1: Are you, you know, I'm gonna put a put a rope around it? Speaker 2: Or are you a guy who hires a professional every single time? Speaker 0: I think one of my my dubious strengths, it's not Speaker 0: like it's it's still a jury's out whether it is a strength, but I'm Speaker 0: willing to try stuff. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: So, I don't know that I can call myself a handyman, but I'm willing Speaker 0: to be a handyman. Speaker 0: And I joke and my kids joke and my wife, everybody around me jokes Speaker 0: that I've fixed a lot of things in the house, but nothing is straight Speaker 0: and nothing is quite right. Speaker 2: Fixed is in quotes. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Fixed is in quotes. Speaker 0: So I it's a step above duct tape, but it probably would have been Speaker 0: better with duct tape.

4:53 Speaker 0: Right. Speaker 0: That's kinda where I live, I think. Speaker 1: And it depends on if you've had a nap. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 2: And so things that you fixed, how many of those things have had to Speaker 2: have a professional come in and fix them afterwards? Speaker 0: There's a toilet ring I did that that, you know, six Speaker 0: months later, there was a you know, there was water on the Speaker 0: dining room table. Speaker 0: But other than that, I think it's been relatively good. Speaker 0: But you don't know. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: I mean, who knows? Speaker 0: That could have been me. Speaker 0: Could have been the guy who owned it before me. Speaker 0: I'm not sure. Speaker 0: It's kinda like your disclaimer off the top. Speaker 0: You're not a doctor. Speaker 0: I'm, you know, I'm a handyman in my own house, but don't call me Speaker 0: over. Speaker 1: So, Bill, we would love to to learn all about your your your dad. Speaker 1: What was his what was his name?

5:34 Speaker 0: Frank. Speaker 0: Frank Cooper. Speaker 0: Yep. Speaker 2: Did he have a middle name? Speaker 0: He had two, actually. Speaker 0: Corvishley and T. Speaker 2: Oh, how did he get those? Speaker 0: Well, T is a family name. Speaker 0: Okay. Speaker 0: That was his mother's maiden name. Speaker 0: And I'm embarrassed and sorry to say I don't know the story behind Corvishley, Speaker 0: but it's an awesome name. Speaker 0: It's my big brother's middle name as well. Speaker 0: And, our family has affectionately nicknamed my, current Speaker 0: vehicle as Corb after Corbuschly. Speaker 2: Did he grow up around here? Speaker 2: Or Speaker 0: My family was straight off the boat from England. Speaker 0: I my sister and I were both born in Canada, but my two brothers Speaker 0: were born in England. Speaker 0: Spent a few years in Ontario, when he was he was doctor.

6:18 Speaker 0: So they when he was still a GP, he worked in Ontario. Speaker 0: He came to Vancouver to specialize, went to the VGH and, Speaker 0: took a specialization in radiology, became a radiologist. Speaker 1: And and what what kind of a guy was he? Speaker 1: How would you describe him? Speaker 0: He's like what you would expect of a of a British guy with a Speaker 0: an incredibly adventurous spirit. Speaker 0: Like, he loved camping and being outdoors, and we had Speaker 0: a little hobby farm in the Fraser Valley. Speaker 0: Like, he just loved adventure. Speaker 0: The guy in the corner of the grammar school, you know, who's reading Speaker 0: the Tom Hardy equivalent books and who wants to adventure. Speaker 0: Nice. Speaker 0: And I I think that's a big part of why they came to Canada, Speaker 0: and our life in Canada was peppered with, you know, Speaker 0: camping trips that were epic and amazing, but we were probably slightly Speaker 0: underprepared for.

7:08 Speaker 0: It's the second Speaker 1: time we've talked to Speaker 0: him. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 2: I like this new quote for you. Speaker 2: Unqualified but willing. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: It's Speaker 1: the name of the episode. Speaker 1: And when he when he was outdoors with you guys, was he, like, Speaker 1: trying to teach you everything? Speaker 1: Was he trying to, like, get you to experience it, but also learn Speaker 1: it so that you could pass it down? Speaker 0: I think that was there in him, but it was never he Speaker 0: never felt it, and it was never obvious. Speaker 2: How do you think his friends would have described him? Speaker 2: Do you think his friends saw him that way, or do you think they Speaker 2: would have a slightly different version of of what he was like? Speaker 0: I don't think they would describe him as the head honcho, Speaker 0: but, he was fun.

7:53 Speaker 0: I mean, I think they probably that would be really the first word they Speaker 0: would reference. Speaker 0: He was, he he he was kinda like he always looked like Speaker 0: he was a move or a prank away from being sat in the corner Speaker 0: by the teacher. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: Was there ever a prank that sticks in Speaker 2: your mind that he did? Speaker 0: Well, I mean, he's got some childhood pranks that, Speaker 0: kind of are in family lore. Speaker 0: Like, they as a family, as I'm told, they rarely Speaker 0: went on holiday, but they were on a rare holiday. Speaker 0: And, his mother and father were sleeping in, and he and his brother David Speaker 0: came in, all excited because they had shot a goose.

8:33 Speaker 0: They thought they had, you know, been sort of adventurous hunters, and they'd gone Speaker 0: out with a bow and arrow. Speaker 0: And it was a domestic goose, and he brought a they brought a goose Speaker 0: into the kitchen at sort of seven o'clock in the morning. Speaker 0: And so I think that, you know, there were a lot of stories like Speaker 0: that, like stealing apples from the neighbor's orchard and that that sort of thing. Speaker 0: That was kind of that was his thing. Speaker 0: But I would say not planned pranks. Speaker 2: So he's mischievous. Speaker 2: Would that be? Speaker 2: Good word. Speaker 2: He's mischievous. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 2: So he's an adventurer Yep. Speaker 2: Unfortunately, sometimes. Speaker 2: Okay. Speaker 2: Yep. Speaker 2: He's obviously taken his family on a large gamble, I guess, and Speaker 2: taken you across the ocean. Speaker 2: And then he sort of settled here, and he just made his peace with Speaker 2: it, and he did the best he could, but he wasn't necessarily the leader Speaker 2: in every moment of every day.

9:21 Speaker 0: I mean, it wasn't, you know, like, nonstop Speaker 0: luxury and all that sort of stuff, but we we were very comfortable in Speaker 0: the valley. Speaker 0: We had a nice hop we had a hobby farm by choice, not by Speaker 0: necessity. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: I mean, that's fun. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 2: Mhmm. Speaker 2: And nonstop luxury is not necessarily the best thing in the world. Speaker 1: No. Speaker 1: No. Speaker 1: Bill, what's, what's one thing that you knew about him, but Speaker 1: nobody else really knew about him? Speaker 1: Like, did he have a special skill that perhaps Speaker 1: people didn't know about? Speaker 0: He loved music. Speaker 0: Like and he loved it at a bizarre volume. Speaker 0: It was so loud. Speaker 0: Like, he would play classical music at a vol at an uncomfortable Speaker 0: volume.

10:03 Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: And so that was his. Speaker 0: You asked me what I do after a day's work. Speaker 0: Like, he he would put on classical music, and he couldn't play. Speaker 0: One year when I was quite young, and I remember my mom giving it Speaker 0: to him, but she gave him a conductor's wand for Christmas one year or Speaker 0: something. Speaker 0: He actually had books that like, he was Oh, he tried. Speaker 0: Wasn't learning to be a conductor because he he wanted to be a conductor, Speaker 0: but it was part of just he just loved music so much that he Speaker 0: Wow. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 1: Bill, can we talk can we talk about, how he how he passed? Speaker 1: What was the circumstances around that? Speaker 0: How did he pass? Speaker 0: I mean, he had a form of dementia, Speaker 0: Lewy body, which is I I mean, I'm not Speaker 0: a specialist in this, but, I mean, all forms of dementia are very difficult Speaker 0: and hard and seemingly unfair.

10:53 Speaker 0: But this one in particular was sort of there were there Speaker 0: were moments of, what what do you call it? Speaker 0: Like, paranoia. Speaker 0: And I think that's not I don't know if it's the only dementia that Speaker 0: features that, but Lewy body is one that does. Speaker 0: And sometimes the the paranoia can come from real life things. Speaker 0: So, actually, some of the books that he read Speaker 0: as he was entering dementia heavily influenced Speaker 0: the themes of his paranoia. Speaker 0: And that was became a hardship for all of us, but most Speaker 0: notably my mom. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: Because she was taking care of him, and there were moments where Speaker 0: he would become quite violent, Speaker 0: more violent to the ether than anything else.

11:43 Speaker 0: But at times, I think my mom probably felt threatened. Speaker 0: So that was really the last few years were tough. Speaker 0: And and it's a the funny thing about dementia is now it's passed. Speaker 0: You can look back and realize, actually, there were elements of it earlier Speaker 0: than we realized. Speaker 2: Mhmm. Speaker 1: My understanding is this Lewy body is what Robin Williams had, Speaker 1: when he when he passed. Speaker 1: And the way it's been described is very, yeah, very terrible. Speaker 1: I'm sorry Speaker 0: for that. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 1: So when you have dementia like that, you know, like, how do you actually Speaker 1: pass? Speaker 1: Is it Speaker 0: He had Speaker 0: an acute episode that required calling, Speaker 0: the ambulance and the authorities.

12:28 Speaker 0: They my parents at the time and my mother still lives on Salt Spring. Speaker 0: So small community and Right. Speaker 0: You know, I guess you could say limited resources. Speaker 0: Although limited resources have never affected them in a negative way. Speaker 0: They, they've always had a great life there. Speaker 0: But in this moment, you know, he had a he was having an episode, Speaker 0: and they needed to be called. Speaker 0: And that he was given some medication that night, a Speaker 0: heavy dose because of how his behavior was, and Speaker 0: he never really recovered from that dose. Speaker 0: But I don't think that's uncommon that, you know, he he he had to Speaker 0: be sort of subdued, and they did what they could to subdue him, and Speaker 0: he never really, in many ways, came back to life.

13:13 Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Because I remember I mean, I got the call, and I got to go Speaker 0: over to Salt Spring and sit by his bed with my mom, but I Speaker 0: never saw him again, really. Speaker 2: So you sorta didn't get a chance to say No. Speaker 2: Goodbye. Speaker 2: But he had been in the dementia had been for a while, and Speaker 0: so, you know, you were aware that Yeah. Speaker 2: That time was more limited. Speaker 1: What What do you remember most about that day or that moment? Speaker 0: Just desperately hoping that there would be a moment of lucidity. Speaker 0: That's probably what I remember most. Speaker 0: Right. Speaker 0: And then, I guess, disappointment that there wasn't. Speaker 0: But in the grand scheme of things, I like you say, Scott, I mean, Speaker 0: I knew. Speaker 0: And because we were are in North Van and they were in Salt Spring, Speaker 0: we did see them, you know, fairly frequently.

13:58 Speaker 0: So I didn't feel deprived in that sense. Speaker 0: But, you know, that last moment, you kinda have this this Hollywood sense of Speaker 0: how it's gonna go and Mhmm. Speaker 0: Didn't go that way. Speaker 2: The eyes light up and then you communicate directly. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: So that was probably what I remember most. Speaker 0: But I but the way it worked is that, you know, it was clear Speaker 0: that this was dire and, you know, Speaker 0: very likely this last few days. Speaker 0: I had a work commitment and an an uncertainty around how long it Speaker 0: would take. Speaker 0: And so I went back to the mainland and was told of Speaker 0: his passing while at this work thing, which Speaker 0: that sounds like something you would regret.

14:41 Speaker 0: And maybe on some level I do, but we had some time in the Speaker 0: palliative care as a family that was, Speaker 0: you know, sounds awful to say fun, but it was it was fun. Speaker 1: We Doesn't sound awful at all. Speaker 0: I've I've heard yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: We sat with him, and, we you know, it was his birthday, actually. Speaker 0: And so we kinda celebrated his birthday unbeknownst to him. Speaker 0: And, and we actually got a a noise warning that we were Speaker 0: having too much fun. Speaker 1: There is something to hang with that on. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: And my sister snuck a a bottle of scotch in and, you know, those Speaker 0: like, it was it was a I got to participate in Speaker 0: that moment with my family, which was treasured or is treasured.

15:23 Speaker 1: So when he did pass, what what were the first few days after that Speaker 1: like for you? Speaker 2: Were you in charge of the process? Speaker 2: Because your mom was still around. Speaker 2: Did you take on responsibility? Speaker 2: Or Speaker 0: No. Speaker 0: I I'm, like, I'm fortunate about so many things in my life, but one Speaker 0: of them is that I have a sibling on Salt Spring. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And he and his wife together with my mom, you Speaker 0: know, took most of the burden, and we were Speaker 0: lucky that all our kids were able to join. Speaker 0: Actually, all the grandchildren were able to join, so that was fortuitous. Speaker 2: I think it's I mean, there's definitely there's different scenarios. Speaker 2: Right? Speaker 2: Either you're given the responsibility or you don't have to take the responsibility.

16:06 Speaker 2: But sometimes I wonder about, not having something to do Speaker 2: can also be difficult because you wanna contribute. Speaker 2: Did you feel a sense of, like, what should I do? Speaker 2: I mean, it was you're grateful to your brother for taking this on. Speaker 2: So what what is the task, or was it sort of, you know, the Speaker 2: gratitude for them and just being there and supporting them? Speaker 0: These are a lot of questions, which is why I signed on to do Speaker 0: this because I've never asked myself these questions, and, Speaker 0: it sounds very, Speaker 0: superficial and and trite for me to say now, but I was, Speaker 0: you know, which I was busy at work. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And I I had that going on. Speaker 0: So Speaker 0: I think that that is that is that cliche?

16:50 Speaker 0: But to have something to keep you busy Mhmm. Speaker 0: Is important. Speaker 0: And I I don't think I did that strategically or knowingly, Speaker 0: but I think I was probably channeling myself Speaker 0: into work. Speaker 0: And it just by serendipity, I guess, the thing that I went back Speaker 0: to the mainland for was really big for our company. Speaker 0: We were bidding to become the sponsorship agency for Whistler Blackcomb. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And we were having a nice lunch with Whistler, the sort of Speaker 0: the senior execs of Whistler up up there. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And that's when I got the call to say that he had passed. Speaker 0: And did you Speaker 1: go back to the table and say my dad just died?

17:31 Speaker 0: My partner, my business partner at the time, she knew what was going on. Speaker 0: So she I think when I got the phone call, she intrinsically knew. Speaker 0: I didn't have to say. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: But I I managed to sort of get through the rest of the Speaker 0: day and and stay stay mentally busy. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And then I so that, you know, those those I don't know if Speaker 0: those are deflections from the question, but I I think in retrospect, that is Speaker 0: that is how I stayed mentally and emotionally busy. Speaker 0: And then I think the other parts are that we had a ceremony within Speaker 0: I think it was a bus it it was it ended up being family Speaker 0: day weekend that we had the ceremony. Speaker 0: So Speaker 2: he February.

18:11 Speaker 0: So he he passed, you know, days before, and that was, again, serendipity Speaker 0: because it allowed us to bring everybody together. Speaker 0: And so, you know, planning Speaker 0: to have everybody together, whether it was booking some rooms or, you know, ordering Speaker 0: a charcuterie board or whatever. Speaker 0: There were there were little minor tasks, and there was the company of Speaker 0: family. Speaker 2: Mhmm. Speaker 0: All those things, I think, help mitigate Speaker 0: the moment. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 1: How were your kids throughout everything? Speaker 1: You mentioned you've got kids, and were they close to Speaker 0: grandpa? Speaker 0: My wife and I, lived overseas for a lot of years and Speaker 0: had two kids overseas and then two when we came back here to Canada. Speaker 0: And one of the strongest motivations to come home was Speaker 0: to spend time with grandparents, and so the kids all got to spend time Speaker 0: with them.

18:59 Speaker 0: And I I don't know without asking my kids and without being in the Speaker 0: room how much it affected them. Speaker 0: I don't recall it being, like, a dark Speaker 0: day of tears and, you know, like, you know, super expressive Speaker 0: emotions. Speaker 1: Mhmm. Speaker 0: But they were they were embraced by family. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: So the the extroverted emotion was mitigated Speaker 0: by the company of family. Speaker 0: I'm interested in Speaker 2: it a little bit. Speaker 2: I mean, your kids are older as well too about you know, it's your Speaker 2: process because it's your dad and it's your family. Speaker 2: And then but it's their grandpa or it's their, you know, relative. Speaker 2: How much engagement you you offer to your kids, I think, is sometimes Speaker 2: fascinating.

19:40 Speaker 2: But I'm also wondering so, Speaker 2: he's passed. Speaker 2: And then do you feel a sense of of responsibility, Speaker 2: or do you feel a sense of ownership about keeping his memory in them? Speaker 2: Do you think they have inherited that, or is there any sort of sense Speaker 2: of how we continually know him now that he's Speaker 2: gone away. Speaker 0: I mean, I and I'm gonna sound like a TV ad here or I Speaker 0: forget which brand it is that always depicts family meals, but it it's family Speaker 0: meals. Speaker 2: Mhmm. Speaker 0: That's a tradition that was in Laurel's family and and, you know, super strong Speaker 0: in my family. Speaker 0: And I I'm not I don't know that my dad was the chief architect Speaker 0: of that in my family.

20:20 Speaker 0: But it it's it it sort of mimics what you imagine of Speaker 0: a proper English family. Speaker 0: Like, you you respect you respect the home. Speaker 0: You respect the traditions of the home. Speaker 0: And you Sunday roast? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Absolutely. Speaker 0: Yorkshire food Speaker 1: made the archers? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Absolutely. Speaker 0: All of those things. Speaker 0: And I and that means that we talk we not only do we eat Speaker 0: at the table, we talk. Speaker 0: And because we are at the table and we talk, we do tell stories Speaker 0: of my mom and dad. Speaker 0: Right. Speaker 0: Not because we plan to, but because that's what family time is. Speaker 2: Is there a story that you your kids would say you maybe have told Speaker 2: just one time too many? Speaker 2: Is there a story that gets repeated maybe a little bit? Speaker 0: One of the ones that gets the the most is that he you know, Speaker 0: by the time we I was old enough to remember, we were settled in Speaker 0: the valley.

21:09 Speaker 0: Again, we were quite a, you know, a fairly privileged family because he was Speaker 0: a doctor. Speaker 0: And, so we were fairly well-to-do, and we went on these camping trips. Speaker 0: But he was not, you know, like every a lot of people that grew Speaker 0: up in England wartime, he doesn't he didn't flaunt Speaker 0: his wealth. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And so he did things on the relative cheap. Speaker 0: And so when we packed to go camping, he used what was around the Speaker 0: house. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: And so, he, like many of us in the family, had Speaker 0: some nasal nasal congestion problems, so he always had bottles of Oatravin around. Speaker 0: And, in this case, he had put, the dish soap in the Oatravin Speaker 0: bottle. Speaker 0: Oh, no.

21:51 Speaker 2: And he Give it the quick wipe like this. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 0: And he hadn't labeled it. Speaker 0: So there was a scene of my dad, sort of, you know, breathing Speaker 0: bubbles out of his nose after having applied a healthy dose of Speaker 0: dish soap up his nose. Speaker 0: Amazing. Speaker 0: So that one gets told a fair fair fair a few times. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: Were there any traits that maybe you picked up after he passed? Speaker 2: Is there anything that you think you've inherited from him? Speaker 0: Frighteningly so. Speaker 0: My wife and my kids make fun of me for it. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And I and in in their company, I defend my safe self Speaker 0: and say, no. Speaker 0: That's not true, but I know it's absolutely true. Speaker 0: Like, I'm I don't know that I'm a carbon copy of my dad, but Speaker 0: I Speaker 0: I love puttering around the garden, and I'm terrible at it.

22:36 Speaker 0: Jack of all trades, master of none type thing that's the I share Speaker 0: that with him. Speaker 0: I think I have a lot of his traits, which is weird. Speaker 0: I when when you grow up in that environment, you think, oh, I'm never Speaker 0: gonna be like that. Speaker 0: I'm gonna do I'm gonna do this. Speaker 0: I'm gonna do that. Speaker 0: But in the end, I'm, I'm just a dreamer. Speaker 0: I'm a guy that reads adventure books and adventures a little, but isn't really Speaker 0: a leader in the class. Speaker 0: Just, you know, I it's it's more that you have that sentimental Speaker 0: attachment to adventure. Speaker 2: I mentioned this to Roger where, Speaker 2: my laugh changed. Speaker 2: I suddenly developed his his laugh Oh, really? Speaker 2: Which feels odd to me to say that because, again, it's supposed to be Speaker 2: something organic.

23:18 Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: And yet I suddenly started laughing like him. Speaker 2: And it's a weird it's a it's a trait that I didn't recognize that Speaker 2: was his, and then I did it, and I was like, why know who Speaker 2: did that? Speaker 2: So I there's these things. Speaker 2: Sometimes I think that they just come at you sideways, and you're like, why Speaker 2: didn't I start doing that? Speaker 2: Oh, this is a thing. Speaker 0: One of the other ones we laugh at a bit, which, I don't know Speaker 0: how much I do it. Speaker 0: You don't know the other people at the table know. Speaker 0: But myself and my oldest daughter, we are we've been known to Speaker 0: make a humming type noise while you're eating Oh. Speaker 0: Which my dad did with gusto. Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Speaker 1: And does the does the change depending on if you like what you're eating Speaker 1: or not? Speaker 1: Like, is it like a Speaker 0: I think well, I think it comes on out of, I'm guessing, it comes Speaker 0: out out of pleasure.

24:02 Speaker 0: Like, you're enjoying being at the table and eating and Just something. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Like, yeah. Speaker 1: Love that. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Love that. Speaker 2: I like to think of your dad humming maybe in, some of those classical Speaker 2: songs that he likes to hear. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: In the back of his mind. Speaker 2: I heard Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 2: In the back of his mind. Speaker 1: I heard you say earlier that you, you know, you you haven't really talked Speaker 1: about this a lot. Speaker 1: And, I'm curious why why why do you think that is? Speaker 0: I don't feel that I have Speaker 0: suffered tremendously nor have I craved Speaker 0: some help with navigating that. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: And I don't know if that means that I'm being naive and Speaker 0: blind to the fact or whether I have good natural sort Speaker 0: of mitigation techniques that I'm without knowing it, Speaker 0: staying busy or doing things that are allowing me to manage.

24:53 Speaker 0: I'm not sure. Speaker 0: And and in saying that, I feel, like, I feel a sense of guilt. Speaker 0: I'm like, jeez, am I a bad am I a bad person? Speaker 0: But, but maybe that's part of what Frank helped teach me. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: I mean, he he, just he just got on with life. Speaker 0: I see my kids now. Speaker 0: They have challenges at school and with sports and things like that, Speaker 0: and they they're expressive in the moment, Speaker 0: but they don't seem to carry it for a long time. Speaker 0: Maybe that's something that my dad and others from that Speaker 0: generation, you know, what they've given us is that's that resilience is Speaker 0: is a strong trait.

25:36 Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 2: Performative guilt is a is a funny one, isn't it? Speaker 2: This idea of, like, especially the question sometimes feels like it's leading. Speaker 2: Like, do you feel guilty? Speaker 2: And then the answer is no. Speaker 2: No. Speaker 2: But you feel like you should feel guilty. Speaker 2: And I I mean, the yeah. Speaker 2: I think that is a very real challenge about this because, Speaker 2: there are some Hollywood esque presubscribed notions Speaker 2: of what grief looks like and what you should do when you're being Speaker 2: presented with this scenario. Speaker 2: And yet I think what I know and Roger and I have spoken about, Speaker 2: and so far everybody's, that there's literally no set of rules that Speaker 2: you have to follow. Speaker 2: You you could almost easily pass the milestone of putting your father Speaker 2: to rest and moving on to your life, and and that may be your Speaker 2: path.

26:23 Speaker 2: And it may just come up in, you know, odd moments. Speaker 0: Yep. Speaker 2: But I I do think that the question of should Speaker 2: I feel more guilty or why don't I feel more guilty Speaker 2: is an interesting one to explore for me anyway because I think that Speaker 2: sometimes develops more into a question about who I am as a person. Speaker 2: It becomes more of a a discussion about what I feel about anything. Speaker 2: So that question I think is fascinating. Speaker 2: Just asking myself, Speaker 0: should Speaker 2: I feel more guilty? Speaker 2: Because it's maybe should I feel more guilty about a job that I didn't Speaker 2: do well at or if I it becomes kind of a character Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 2: Discussion for me sometimes. Speaker 0: Nine point nine times out of ten, if not a hundred times, or I Speaker 0: guess it would be ten times.

27:04 Speaker 0: Math. Speaker 0: Math. Speaker 1: So much math. Speaker 1: Math. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 0: You know, the the parent who you lose Speaker 0: would want you to succeed in life and and do Speaker 0: all the good things and not be, you know, succumb Speaker 0: to grief or, you know, emotional obstacles, etcetera, that impede you. Speaker 0: So the fact that I haven't perhaps I'm I'm I'm living Speaker 0: my best frank even though I haven't felt a huge amount of, Speaker 0: you know, the what's perceived or what's put out there as the Speaker 0: the the the grief that should follow. Speaker 0: On multiple occasions in the last year is when we are over on Salt Speaker 0: Spring or when one of my older kids comes a day or two later Speaker 0: or what have you, we hear them and their cousins describe, Speaker 0: oh, I stopped to see Frank on the way back from Fulford Ferry.

27:57 Speaker 0: So they stop at his headstone. Speaker 0: See, that makes me cry. Speaker 0: So what more can you ask for? Speaker 2: Does his or did his passing or does it in the in the current Speaker 2: sense make you feel anything about your own mortality? Speaker 2: There's sometimes this occurred to me, which is, you know, when my father passed, Speaker 2: then this idea of it now swings to me. Speaker 2: Does it make you think about that or about your sense of what time Speaker 2: you have on this earth? Speaker 0: I would say Speaker 0: I've had I don't know if it was a midlife or a late life Speaker 0: crisis or whatever it was, but I I lost my job, Speaker 0: unexpectedly through someone else's decision, a few years ago.

28:39 Speaker 0: And through that process and maybe in retrospect a little bit Speaker 0: of dad passing and seeing my mom at times struggle a bit, I've Speaker 0: had kind of a change of heart about this is not about me. Speaker 0: It's about them. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: And so you you kinda change gears and you're less preoccupied with Speaker 0: what you're doing and more preoccupied with what's the cool stuff my Speaker 0: kids are doing. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: You you you you you change gears, and and you you Speaker 0: are really contented and happy to watch them progress. Speaker 1: Well, but we really, really enjoyed meeting you and learning more about Speaker 1: Frank. Speaker 1: And, before we go, I'm just curious if you could give one piece of Speaker 1: advice to any guy out there who just lost their dad, Speaker 1: what what would that be?

29:27 Speaker 0: You you probably have embraced either knowingly or unknowingly Speaker 0: a family tradition. Speaker 0: Keep embracing it. Speaker 0: Keep carrying it forward, because that that Speaker 0: will be a huge resource for you. Speaker 0: Your your stability, your pride, and what they built and you are now building Speaker 0: and how that passes on down. Speaker 0: And and, ultimately, I I never asked my kids to visit his headstone, but Speaker 0: I have a nephew who goes and visits with a with a Speaker 0: bottle of scotch. Speaker 0: Oh, nice. Speaker 0: That's pretty nice. Speaker 0: I can't afford the scotch. Speaker 2: Is there a trade of his that you miss the most out of out Speaker 2: of all of the great things that he did?

30:10 Speaker 2: Is there one thing that sort of sticks with you about who he was Speaker 2: that you miss? Speaker 0: I think it's just presence, not a trait. Speaker 0: Mhmm. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: When we my sister and brother and I that are still on the West Speaker 0: Coast, we will go fishing or do things that Frank would have Speaker 0: done and just not having him there. Speaker 0: That's probably what you miss the most. Speaker 0: Classical music blaring, that'd be that'd be kinda nice. Speaker 0: Not because I want it all the time, but it'll be a nice re Speaker 0: reoccurrence. Speaker 0: Right. Speaker 0: So maybe that's a trait you miss. Speaker 0: So there's things like that. Speaker 0: My daughter and I while we eat, so we got that ourselves anyway. Speaker 2: Bill? Speaker 2: Thank you.

30:51 Speaker 2: Thanks for coming in. Speaker 2: Thanks for agreeing to do it. Speaker 2: Thanks for being intentional about it. Speaker 2: And and I think I get the sense from our conversations, Speaker 2: like, there is a sense of you trying to do the right thing, trying Speaker 2: to think about the right thing, but it I think being curious and interesting Speaker 2: is great. Speaker 2: I know it's helpful for me, but I hope it was helpful for you. Speaker 2: And so thank you. Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming. Speaker 1: Thank you. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: No. Speaker 0: It was it was it was weird word to say, but it was fun. Speaker 0: I appreciate it. Speaker 0: It was good good Speaker 2: There are no good words for a dead dad's podcast. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: We can't figure what. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 2: So Speaker 1: We haven't done it yet. Speaker 2: Fine. Speaker 2: Yeah. Speaker 0: Yeah. Speaker 0: No. Speaker 0: I enjoyed it. Speaker 0: And it's it's cool. Speaker 0: You get to talk about these things. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: And, and I've heard it said before, and I don't think I realized it Speaker 0: until maybe maybe this moment that Speaker 0: if you don't get to talk about the people, then they they do disappear.

31:41 Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: So better to talk about them, you know, than not. Speaker 0: Right? Speaker 0: You don't wanna keep that bottled up because then the next generation won't recall. Speaker 1: A good way to good way to wrap up here. Speaker 1: Thanks so much, for all you guys out there. Speaker 1: Another episode of the Dead Dads podcast is in the can. Speaker 1: I need you to do us a huge favor and like and subscribe, the Speaker 1: podcast wherever you're listening or watching. Speaker 1: Actually, something really, really cool that we would love you to do is is Speaker 1: leave a comment on maybe a piece of advice you have for someone out Speaker 1: there who's lost their father. Speaker 1: I think that could be hugely valuable to our community. Speaker 1: Scott, Rondo, another one? Speaker 2: Absolutely right.

32:21 Speaker 2: Rondo, another one. Speaker 2: If you didn't like the podcast, leave a comment and said that you liked Speaker 2: the podcast because that helps as well. Speaker 1: Yeah. Speaker 1: Just lie. Speaker 1: Thanks.